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From:
"STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:39:08 -0500
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Assuming that this is a straight question of clarification, I'll try clarifying.

their usage is making a grammatical distinction that Standard English marks lexically

Many Bantu languages, as well as lots of other languages, make a morphological distinction between immediate past and remote past, using different prefixes to mark them.  Standard English marks this distinction, when it does, lexically, that is, by adding time adverbs, for example, contrasting 

I just left.  (immediate past)

with

I left last year.  (remote past)

"I left," by itself, doesn't make clear when in the past the action took place.

Many varieties of non-standard English do make the distinction grammatically, and for these speakers the second example above would have to be

I had left last year.

because the time of the action is remote.  This is not a standard use of the past perfect and is, in the varieties that use it, not a past perfect but a remote past.  

they have little trouble adapting to the more formal academic register

It is usually a not too difficult matter to explain in class that informal spoken English, what's commonly called "colloquial English," uses "had + pp" in this way Standard English does not.  Students are usually interested in learning about differences between the English they use informally and Standard English.  I used "formal academic register" to specify the variety of Standard English I would be dealing with if I were to make such an explanation in the classroom.

Note that the remote past grammatical structure marked by "had + pp" is distinct from the past perfect even in the speech of speakers who use it habitually.  They will also use past perfect in conventional ways, so we could, perhaps, speak of the past perfect taking on an additional "remote past" meaning in these varieties of English.

I hope this clarifies and doesn't cause further confusion.

Herb

Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN  47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: December 2, 2009 7:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: thinking of Brad

--- On Mon, 11/30/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
This does look like an instance of the increasingly common but still marginal use of had+pp to mark remote past, in contrast to the simple past marking a more recent past.  I've run into this fairly often in the speech and writing of my students ...

I get it down to here but would someone please tell me what the rest of Herb's message means?

... and when they understand that their usage is making a grammatical distinction that Standard English marks lexically if at all they have little trouble adapting to the more formal academic register.

.brad.01dec09.

~~~~~

Hi everyone,

I just spoke with a member of the community (a very nice 81yo man) who called the dept to ask a grammar question, and Brad, I thought of you. :)  The caller read to me from a letter from his congressman that began with this sentence:

"In the past, you had contacted me in regard to the Obama/Pelosi healthcare bill."

The caller wanted to know the name of "that tense that uses 'had'."  I think he was planning to write back to his congressman and tell him to make better verb choices.

Beth


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