I consider the phrase "who and what Jews are" to be the object of the
preposition and the "who" to be the subject of "are." Some may argue for a
PN; however, "who" is still the correct form.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
There are 5 messages totalling 773 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are" (5)
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:31:45 -0500
From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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Hello everyone=2C
Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"?=20
"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what Jews are=
"
These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?
Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally=2C in this case the use of =
"who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subj=
ect=2C and that requirement supersedes the requirement that a pronoun objec=
t of a preposition should be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correc=
t? Is my reasoning correct?
I teach English to adults whose first language is not English=2C so I need =
to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and c=
larity what I say to them.=20
I appreciate your help as always.
Martha
=
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--_c2112664-21d1-4177-af4e-5ab0638b4c22_
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'> Hello everyone=2C<br><br>Am I
correct in the following statement the "whom"= should be "who"?
<br><br><i>"exposes and challenges the common assumptions= about whom and
what Jews are"</i><br><br>These are my thoughts as to why I= come to that
conclusion--what do you say?<br><br>Although a preposition pr= ecedes "whom"
normally=2C in this case the use of "who" is required because= the verb in
the succeeding clause requires a subject=2C and that requireme= nt
supersedes the requirement that a pronoun object of a preposition should=
be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correc=
t?<br><br>I teach English to adults whose first language is not English=2C =
so I need to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great convic=
tion and clarity what I say to them. <br><br>I appreciate your help as alwa=
ys.<br><br>Martha<br><br>
</div></body>
</html>=
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 07:41:00 -0800
From: Erin Karl <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
--2064194375-502397990-1330098060=:23709
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"Jews are who and what" is a noun clause that acts as the object of the pre=
position "about."=A0 That clause is linking in nature and "who and what" is=
the compound predicate nominative.=0A=0A=0AThe nominative case is WHO.=A0 =
The noun clause is the object, but when determining pronoun cases, you have=
to look at what job that individual word is doing.=A0 In this case, it's t=
he predicate nominative, so you must use the nominative case.=A0 The prepos=
ition has no bearing.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0A=0AErin Karl=0AAnalytical Grammar =
- University Edition=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> Fr=
om: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>=0A>To: [log in to unmask]
EDU =0A>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:31 AM=0A>Subject: who or whom? a=
fter a prep., but subj of "are"=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>Hello everyone,=0A>=0A>Am =
I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"? =0A>=0A>"e=
xposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what Jews are"=
=0A>=0A>These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do =
you say?=0A>=0A>Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this ca=
se the use of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause r=
equires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement that a p=
ronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective case. Is my concl=
usion correct? Is my reasoning correct?=0A>=0A>I teach English to adults wh=
ose first language is not English, so I need to understand thoroughly and b=
e able to explain with great conviction and clarity what I say to them. =0A=
>=0A>I appreciate your help as always.=0A>=0A>Martha=0A>=0A>=0ATo join
>or l=
eave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://l=
istserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"=
=0A>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A>=0A>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>"Jews are who and wha=
t" is a noun clause that acts as the object of the preposition "about."&nbs=
p; That clause is linking in nature and "who and what" is the compound pred=
icate nominative.<br></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Th=
e nominative case is WHO. The noun clause is the object, but when det=
ermining pronoun cases, you have to look at what job that individual word i=
s doing. In this case, it's the predicate nominative, so you must use=
the nominative case. The preposition has no bearing.</span></div><di=
v><br><span></span></div><div><span>Regards,<br></span></div><div><br><s
v>pan=
></span></div><div><span>Erin Karl</span></div><div><span>Analytical
>Gramma=
r - University Edition<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style=3D"border=
-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px;
padding-left: 5px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-se=
rif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new yor=
k, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"2"> <hr size=3D"1"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</sp=
an></b> Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]><br> <b><span
an>style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> [log in to unmask] <br> <b><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 24, 2012 =
10:31 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> who =
or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"<br> </font> </div> <br>=0A<div id=
=3D"yiv474142521">=0A=0A<style><!--=0A#yiv474142521 .yiv474142521hmmessage =
P=0A{=0Amargin:0px;padding:0px;}=0A#yiv474142521 body.yiv474142521hmmessage=
=0A{=0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}=0A--></style>=0A<div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">=0AHello everyone,<br><br>Am I correct in the following statement the=
"whom" should be "who"? <br><br><i>"exposes and challenges the common assu=
mptions about whom and what Jews are"</i><br><br>These are my thoughts as t=
o why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?<br><br>Although a preposi=
tion precedes "whom" normally, in this case the use of "who" is required be=
cause the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subject, and that requir=
ement supersedes the requirement that a pronoun object of a preposition sho=
uld be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning cor=
rect?<br><br>I teach English to adults whose first language is not English,=
so I need to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great convi=
ction and clarity what I say to them. <br><br>I appreciate your help as alw=
ays.<br><br>Martha<br><br> =09=09 =09 =09=09 </div></div>=0ATo join or l=
eave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:=0A h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or leave th=
e list"=0A<div>=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A</div></div><=
br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></body></html>
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--2064194375-502397990-1330098060=:23709--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:42:59 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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Martha,
Technically, the subject of the clause after "about" is "Jews." This "f=
ronting" is typical of Wh headed clauses.
" I know where you're going". "I know how you will get there. "I know wh=
at you did last summer." In all three cases, the subject of the clause afte=
r "know" is "you."
The question becomes whether you use "who" or "whom" as complement of t=
he verb to be. It's "It is I" all over again.
"Jews are who and what." That seems right to me.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Martha Galphin
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
Hello everyone,
Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"?
"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what Jews are=
"
These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?
Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case the use of "w=
ho" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subjec=
t, and that requirement supersedes the requirement that a pronoun object of=
a preposition should be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correct? I=
s my reasoning correct?
I teach English to adults whose first language is not English, so I need to=
understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and cla=
rity what I say to them.
I appreciate your help as always.
Martha
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div
class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Martha,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Techni=
cally, the subject of the clause after “about” is “Jews.&=
#8221; This “fronting” is typical of Wh headed clauses.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> “ I kn=
ow where you’re going”. “I know how you will get there. &=
#8220;I know what you did last summer.” In all three cases, the subje=
ct of the clause after “know” is
“you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> The qu=
estion becomes whether you use “who” or “whom” as c=
omplement of the verb to be. It’s “It is I” all over agai=
n.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> &=
#8220;Jews are who and what.” That seems right to me.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Craig<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Assembly=
for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Martha Galphin<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012
10:32 AM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> who or
whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Hello eve=
ryone,<br> <br> Am I correct in the following statement the "whom"
should be &quo= t;who"? <br> <br> <i>"exposes and challenges the
common assumptions about whom and what = Jews are"</i><br> <br> These
are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?= <br>
<br> Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case
the= use of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding
clau= se requires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement
that= a pronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective case.
Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correct?<br> <br> I teach English
to adults whose first language is not English, so I need to= understand
thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and cla= rity what I
say to them.
<br>
<br>
I appreciate your help as always.<br>
<br>
Martha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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uohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list&qu=
ot; <o:p></o:p></p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</=
a> <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:11:20 -0500
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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This reminds me of what has traditionally been the hardest grammar question
on my final exam:
*Give this letter to whoever/whomever arrives first.
*One might reason that you would say "Give the letter to *him*," and thus
you replace *him* with *whom*.
It's a battle between the pawn [*to*] and the queen [*arrives*]. But we
all know that queens need their subjects. Thus, *whoever arrives*. Behind
the curtain, though, the pawn is chuckling, as he's in charge of a big, fat
noun clause.
Don Stewart
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wro=
te:
> Martha,****
>
> Technically, the subject of the clause after =93about=94 is
> =93Jews.=
=94 This
> =93fronting=94 is typical of Wh headed clauses.****
>
> =93 I know where you=92re going=94. =93I know how you will get
> there. =
=93I know
> what you did last summer.=94 In all three cases, the subject of the
> claus=
e
> after =93know=94 is =93you.=94****
>
> The question becomes whether you use =93who=94 or =93whom=94 as
> compl=
ement of
> the verb to be. It=92s =93It is I=94 all over again. ****
>
> =93Jews are who and what.=94 That seems right to me.****
>
> ** **
>
> Craig****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Martha Galphin
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2012 10:32 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"?
>
> *"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what
> Jews
> are"*
>
> These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you
> sa=
y?
>
> Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case the use
> of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause
> requires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement
> that a pronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective
> case. Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correct?
>
> I teach English to adults whose first language is not English, so I
> need to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great
> conviction and clarity what I say to them.
>
> I appreciate your help as always.
>
> Martha****
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list" ****
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** To join or leave this
> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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This reminds me of what has traditionally been the hardest grammar question=
on my final exam:<br><br><b>Give this letter to whoever/whomever arrives f=
irst.<br><br></b>One might reason that you would say "Give the letter =
to <b>him</b>," and thus=20 you replace <b>him</b> with <b>whom</b>.
<br><br>It's a battle between = the pawn [<b>to</b>] and the queen
[<b>arrives</b>].=A0=A0 But we all know = that queens need their subjects.
Thus, <b>whoever arrives</b>. Behind the c= urtain, though, the pawn is
chuckling, as he's in charge of a big, fat = noun clause.<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Don Stewart<br><br><div>On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM,=
Hancock, Craig G <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
du">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"> <div> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Martha,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0=A0 Technicall=
y, the subject of the clause after =93about=94 is =93Jews.=94 This =93front=
ing=94 is typical of Wh headed clauses.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0 =93 I know wh=
ere you=92re going=94. =93I know how you will get there. =93I know what you=
did last summer.=94 In all three cases, the subject of the clause after =
=93know=94
is =93you.=94<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0=A0 The questi=
on becomes whether you use =93who=94 or =93whom=94 as complement of the ver=
b to be. It=92s =93It is I=94 all over again.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0=A0=A0=93Jews =
are who and what.=94 =A0=A0That seems right to me.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Craig<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:rgb(181,196,223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;paddin=
g:3pt 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"T=
ahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Assembly for=
the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martha Galphin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 10:32 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">AT=
[log in to unmask]</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> who or whom? after a prep.,
but subj of "are"<u><= /u><u></u></span></p> </div> </div> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Hello everyon=
e,<br> <br> Am I correct in the following statement the "whom"
should be &quo= t;who"? <br> <br> <i>"exposes and challenges the
common assumptions about whom and what = Jews are"</i><br> <br> These
are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?= <br>
<br> Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case
the= use of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding
clau= se requires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement
that= a pronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective case.
Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correct?<br> <br> I teach English
to adults whose first language is not English, so I need to= understand
thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and cla= rity what I
say to them.
<br>
<br>
I appreciate your help as always.<br>
<br>
Martha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th=
e list's web interface at:
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join
>or=
leave the list"
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://ateg.org/</a> <u></u> <u></u></p> </div> </div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site
at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a>
</p></blockquote></div><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--f46d04016c1b69140d04b9b9b293--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:35:40 -0800
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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End of ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
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