A student wrote this in an essay.
"It's important to prepare your house for a hurricane, so you won't come
home to a mess when you return. That is if you're lucky enough to not have
your whole house blown away."
"
Another teacher looking at my papers pointed out to me that the second
sentence is a fragment. I agreed at first, but then I wondered why.
"That is if you're lucky enough to not have your whole house blown away."
"That" = subject.
"is" = verb
"if............... blown away" = noun clause???
I thought of these examples, but they seem different somehow. Are these
fragments too?
That is why I quit my job.
That is when you know you are in trouble.
That is whom I voted for.
That is who got my vote.
"If" can introduce a noun clause but there is not a "that" beginning the
main clause usually.
I wondered if my house would be blown away.
That will tell me if my house is still standing.
If it's a fragment, should it be connected to the preceding one with a comma
between.
Is it considered as aside. How is it labeled? I don't know how to explain
this. Is there a name for that type of clause? What does "that" refer to in
the independent clause?
It's important to prepare your house for a hurricane, so you won't come home
to a mess when you return, that is if you're lucky enough to not have your
whole house blown away.
-
Christine Reintjes Martin
[log in to unmask]
>From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: success of linguistic grammars?]
>Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:07:19 -0500
>
>Christine,
> I was forwarding the message from Joan Livingston-Webber, so your
>response is to her post about her classroom practices.
>(I would be proud to call them my own, but that would be misleading.)
>She has been having trouble reading ATEG posts when they come directly
>to her computer.
> You're absolutely right. We need to be very careful not to
>oversimplify.
> A good friend and colleague had an interesting way to say this in a
>talk yesterday: "It would be OK to tell students it's OK to be
>themselves if we could change the world for that to be true." In
>reality, the task is far more complex than that. Our students need to
>negotiate their way in a world that will be both open and hostile, and
>sometimes the openness will be illusory, and sometimes the hostility
>will at least have the advantage of being clear. And sometimes we need
>to listen to them to perceive these differences.
> It doesn't do any good to tell students you like them (or accept
>them) if you are setting them up for failure.
> As progressive educators, we sometimes do more harm than good by our
>discomfort with clear standards.
> The natural language of our students is a wonderful starting point
>for growth, but it will not be a starting point for growth if we don't
>demand (expect) significant development. In general, they are capable of
>far more than we are asking of them, and most students want to be pushed
>when that comes from a respect for their capabilities.
> If Smitherman is right (I think she is), syntactic features are
>minor, and the major difference is what she calls a communicative style,
>which can almost be paraphrased as a different way of being in a
>communal world. Gates uses this also to argue for African-American
>literature being judged from within that community. It has an organic
>connection to that community that would be lost when judged from
>different standards.
> If the only differences were surface feature differences, then
>dialect would little matter.
> Perhaps one of the reasons this becomes so political is that there
>are enormous political implications. An articulate populace is more
>likely to defend its own interests.
> What we have going, of course, is the wonderful realization that
>being bi-dialectical is not only possible, but deeply enriching.
>Consciousness of double consciousness dates all the way back to W. E. B.
>Dubois and probably began when the first two slaves decided they would
>say one thing to each other and another to the master. We now recognize
>that the truest histories of pre civil war America are in the slave
>narratives. We may once have wanted to suppress them, but now they are
>priceless treasures we work hard to unearth.
>
>Craig
>
>Christine
>Christine Reintjes wrote:
>
>>Craig,
>>
>>
>>"No one in my classes thinks or leaves thinking that all dialects are
>>socially or politically equal."
>>
>>I hope this is true of my classes also. I'm aware that this is the first
>>thing the gets distorted when there are discussions about the "inherent"
>>equality of dialects.
>>
>>I use the example of the fact that so many English computer terms have
>>become part of the vocabulary of many other languages. Why did this
>>happen?
>>Why not Arabic or Inuit? I ask them where did these specailized words
>>come
>>from within English since they obviously weren't around 100 years ago.
>>Anyway, I try to discuss how dialects develop differently depending on
>>how
>>they are used and the social and political pressures at work.
>>
>>Who are these people going around saying all dialects are politically and
>>socially equal?? I've never heard anyone say that, but people do react
>>as if
>>that is what is being put forth.
>>--
>>
>>Christine Reintjes Martin
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>>>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: [Fwd: Re: success of linguistic grammars?]
>>>Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:21:23 -0500
>>>
>>> Joan Livingston-Webber asked me to forward this thoughtful message to
>>>the group.
>>>
>>>-------- Original Message --------
>>>Subject: Re: success of linguistic grammars?
>>>Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:57:18 -0600
>>>From: Joan Livingston-Webber <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>>>References: <[log in to unmask]>
>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I teach two courses to English Ed majors - English in its Social and
>>>Historical
>>>Contexts (or sociolinquistics with accompanying narratives - or that's
>>>basically how I do it) and Grammar Methods, which includes lg
>>>acquisition
>>>and methods of teaching grammar, including how to make sense of
>>>handbooks
>>>(specifically, Hacker) as well as readings by Weaver, Wheeler, E.
>>>Schuster,
>>>and
>>>others. No one in my classes thinks or leaves thinking that all
>>>dialects
>>>are
>>>socially or politically equal. Indeed, one point to make is that if
>>>they
>>>were,
>>>we wouldn't need a course one of whose purposes is to demonstrate the
>>>systematicity of varieties. That students learn in linguistics courses
>>>that
>>>all dialeacts are equal is some kind of urban myth.
>>>
>>>I do think it's vital - essential - for ed majors to understand the
>>>equivalence
>>>in formalness of varieties, since if they go into teaching with an
>>>elitist
>>>attitude, that attitude will interfere with their effectiveness. The
>>>sociolinguistics course is designed to teach certain analytic tools,
>>>certain information and facts - as much by discovery as possible -
>>>but one
>>>end
>>>of it all is persuasive, to let the "facts" students discover using the
>>>tools
>>>convince tham that variation is not an evil or careless or lazy or the
>>>product
>>>of inadequate cognition.
>>>
>>>>From that point, then, a methods course on effective ways to teach
>>>>grammar
>>>
>>>makes sense and that is the second course I teach to ed majors. One
>>>reason
>>>I
>>>have recently found this listserv and several other resources is that
>>>I am
>>>not
>>>at all satisfied with what Craig (I think) called "point of contact"
>>>as the
>>>interpretation of "in context." I teach and have tried to find
>>>models for
>>>using grammatical concepts for insights into literature, into
>>>other documents, into local variation. I have serious reservations
>>>about "using" lit to teach grammar. I don't want to end up turning
>>>kids off
>>>to
>>>literature. I look for ways to use grammatical concepts to open up
>>>literature. What I've been seeing is that the trend is to say that
>>>grammar
>>>(of
>>>whatever ilk) should be taught in 4-7 or so - and then move on. What
>>>I am
>>>looking for is partly, I think, where that moving on goes.
>>>
>>>Let me describe an example of the kinds of things I encounter: an ed
>>>major
>>>doing pre-student-teaching field observations called me a couple
>>>years ago.
>>> He
>>>was in a one-semester course called Remedial Writing (grade 8). The
>>>students
>>>were going through Warriner's. The class spent one week on each chapter,
>>>and
>>>every Friday, they took a quiz involving labeling things in sentences
>>>and
>>>underlining elements of sentences, given the labels. Deadly. Neither a
>>>grammar course nor a writing course. My student was to take the week on
>>>Positive, Comparative, and Superlative Adjectives. The teacher didn't
>>>care if
>>>he deviated from the worksheet method, but the students had to take the
>>>Friday
>>>quiz.
>>>
>>>In the end, he assigned his students a short essay (itself contextless
>>>except
>>>for the course) comparing any two things. They were to exaggerate as
>>>much
>>>as
>>>they could. They wrote comparisons of football and basketball, two
>>>kinds
>>>of
>>>off-road vehicles, two kinds of guns, two kinds of music - that kind of
>>>thing.
>>>They used this writing to learn to identify the elements. My student's
>>>report:
>>>they had more fun. The comparisons were really outrageous. One guy
>>>didn't
>>>even sleep. They did about the same on the quiz as they had been doing.
>>>
>>>I think my conscious grammatical knowledge has always helped open
>>>literature to
>>>me. I don't understand how students with no knowledge of grammatical
>>>concepts
>>>can read sophisticated texts. David Mulroy's discussion of the
>>>subject of
>>>the
>>>first sentence of the Declaration of Independence hits the nail on the
>>>head.
>>>How can someone follow the meaning of one of Virgina Woolf's long
>>>cumulative
>>>sentences without understanding how final modifiers relate to the base
>>>clause?
>>>To me, it sounds like reading without grammatical concepts is like
>>>looking
>>>at a
>>>vista color blind. Yes, there's a great deal the same, but given a
>>>choice,
>>>technicolor is richer and reveals details otherwise invisible.
>>>
>>>The way I teach grammar methods (to secondary ed majors) means I need
>>>to be
>>>able to demonstrate some of the ends for teaching grammar at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>Quoting Craig Hancock :
>>>
>>>>Joan,
>>>> I'm writing this to ATEG, but sending it directly to you as well
>>>>just to see if the problem is in my computer or in how it comes out of
>>>>the List when redirected. I'll be happy to send you the last post as
>>>>well.
>>>> I do think Black English is not so embattled as it once was,
>>>>though
>>>>the good guys did not win the public battle that erupted post Oakland.
>>>>Perhaps one reason for the concern on the part of Black students is
>>>>their sense that progressive educators are very happy to let Black kids
>>>>be themselves, but that this may doom them to living a marginal life.
>>>> At any rate, they have far more at stake here than we do, and it's not
>>>>up to us to tell them what the proper way of understanding all this is,
>>>>but to help them evolve or develop their own complex positions. It
>>>>makes
>>>>a great classroom topic precisely because it will elicit passionate
>>>>responses from a number of perspectives. That is to say, in a typical
>>>>college classroom with a number of language minority students (my usual
>>>>class), pretty much all sensible positions (and a few not so sensible
>>>>ones) will be presented. The right answer (on how to negotiate these
>>>>language worlds) may be different for every student.
>>>> A question like "Do you believe in Black English" is just not
>>>>answerable in a yes/no way, and we can't let ourselves get forced into
>>>>saying how we feel these students should conduct their lives. I'm sure
>>>>your "yes" wasn't intended that way, but that may, in fact, be what was
>>>>heard from their side. (Been there, done that.) It may not be the
>>>>students who have changed, but us or their trust in us?
>>>> Both the prescriptive and "progressive" positions are suspect. I
>>>>haven't met a Black parent yet who didn't want his/her child fluent in
>>>>mainstream English. They are rightly suspicious when they hear someone
>>>>say that Black English is OK.
>>>> Progressive educators have been happy to teach the primary
>>>>tenets of
>>>>sociolinguistics, but have adamantly opposed the teaching of grammar.
>>>> Being for or against may make little difference if the students are
>>>>ill served.
>>>>
>>>>Craig
>>>>
>>>>Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >I have a very hard time reading messages from ATEG - "it" (ATEG?)
>>>>tells
>>>>me
>>>>my
>>>> >reader can't read mime. I get a lot of code. SOmetimes I get word
>>>>wrap
>>>>and
>>>> >sometimes not. The archives aren't much better. I've thought of
>>>> >unsubscribing, but I find what I can pick up of the conversations
>>>>between
>>>>Craig
>>>> >and Herb especially so tantalizing that I try to read them, though I
>>>>know I
>>>> >miss a lot. I am unable to follow exchanges of short dialogue,
>>>>since I
>>>>get
>>>> >frustrated in searching for the bits.
>>>> >
>>>> >I did want to reply to Craig's saying a few days ago that linguistic
>>>>grammars
>>>> >haven't made a dent in prescriptive attitudes. (My one-line
>>>>summary of
>>>>a
>>>>much
>>>> >longer statement, which I can't copy because of all the intervening
>>>>code.
>>>>I'm
>>>> >never sure I've gotten a good sense of the whole; I hope my comment
>>>>wasn't
>>>> >already made elsewhere.)
>>>> >
>>>> >I first taught linguistics to ed students at Indiana in the late
>>>>70's as
>>>>an
>>>> >intern. I taught it at IUPUI in the early 80's, at Western
>>>>Illinois in
>>>>the
>>>> >late 80's and late 90's, at U of NE at Omaha in the mid 80's. I
>>>>continue
>>>>to
>>>> >teach it, though the courses have changed substantially in some ways.
>>>> >
>>>> >The students I have now are not nearly as resistent to the idea of
>>>>dialects
>>>>as
>>>> >rule-governed systems as they use to be. I used to have Black
>>>>students
>>>>come
>>>>up
>>>> >to me after class and ask if I "believed in" Black English," as though
>>>>it
>>>>were
>>>> >a statement of faith. Some of those students dropped the course
>>>>when I
>>>>said
>>>> >yes. Now, I may have a small group of students who want to challenge
>>>>the
>>>> >conclusions that dialectal rules of phonology, morphology, and syntax
>>>>lead
>>>>us -
>>>> >that all varieties are systematic. But I have not had a Black student
>>>>simply
>>>> >deny the existence of Black English since about 1982. That kind of
>>>>denial
>>>>just
>>>> >doesn't show up anymore. That seems to me to indicate substantial
>>>>progress.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >Joan Livingston-Webber
>>>> >Department of ENglish and Journalism
>>>> >Western Illinois University
>>>> > Better a pack of greyhounds than a pack of
>>>>camels
>>>> >
>>>> >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>interface
>>>>at:
>>>> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> >and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>> >
>>>> >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Joan Livingston-Webber
>>>Department of ENglish and Journalism
>>>Western Illinois University
>>> Better a pack of greyhounds than a pack of camels
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>interface
>>>at:
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>>>
>>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
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