That's interesting--if it were "she and her her colleagues took," wouldn't that leave open the possibility that her six years of teaching experience had already begun when she took those college grammar courses? (People do student teach while in college.)
Brian
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Texas is getting explicit, continued
Thanks, Bruce. Here's a bit more context, from the Dallas Morning News of 14 January.
“We are of a generation where grammar was not a focus in our education,” said Elsie Nash, an English teacher at Richardson High School. Nash has been teaching for six years.
Of course, she and her colleagues had taken grammar classes in college.
“But we can use a refresher,” said Kate Gonzales, an English teacher at Berkner High School who also has six years of experience.
I don't understand the point you're making but shouldn't the middle paragraph of the three above read ".. her colleagues took grammar classes .."?
.brad.29jan11.
________________________________
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 8:52:08 AM
Subject: Re: Texas is getting explicit, continued
It makes perfect sense, if you assume that the past tense of the verb "take" was desired. Without the larger context I cannot make this judgement about the writer's desires. However, in the sentences you gave there was context to suggest that the writer might desire to make a past tense of the verb "have." This would allow the use of a perfect participle construction as I gave it. The verb "have" together with the perfect participle is the normal way to express the perfect aspect. I believe your examples of the acceptable uses of this construction are confined to clauses within the context of a single sentence.
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Texas is getting explicit, continued
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:45:35 -0800
Bruce,
What he did was try to put 'had' in front of a past tense verb and thereby forced the irregular past participle because the verb is irregular.
If that doesn't make as much sense as you'd like, work with it a while and it will clarify itself.
.brad.27jan11.
Ref: "She and her colleagues had taken grammar classes in college."
________________________________
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 11:37:52 AM
Subject: Re: Texas is getting explicit, continued
This analysis seems to come from taking the phrase "had"+perfect participle as a "tense" like that in some other languages. Hence, on a given day I might easily write that a teacher had awakened, eaten breakfast, brushed her teeth, gotten into her car, driven toward the school, stopped at a drugstore, purchased The Dallas Morning News, arrived at the school, parked her car, and gone to her classroom, before she finally started to teach the little dears. All of it happened before she taught that day, did it not? This is definitely a past tense of "have," but its use with the perfect participles is a sign that the perfect aspect is desired for the interpretation.
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Texas is getting explicit, continued
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:15:41 -0800
Jeffrey,
On any given day, would you write that a teacher had awakened, had eaten breakfast, had brushed her teeth, had gotten into her car, had driven toward the school, had stopped at a drugstore, had purchased The Dallas Morning News, had arrived at the school, had parked her car, had gone to her classroom, before she finally started to teach the little dears? All of it happened before she taught that day, did it not?
The verb in your sentence, 'had taken', is NOT 'past perfect'. It's a rather long story but people DO put 'had'; in front of past tense verbs. Look at any newspaper or listen to any newscast. The BBC and the Associated Press are particularly flagrant committers.
If you try to put 'had' in front of an IRREGULAR past tense verb, you may try, for example, to put 'had' in front of 'took' and since 'had took' strikes most of us as wrong, you force the irregular past participle and thus write, 'had taken', as you did. What you did was try to put 'had' in front of a past tense verb and thereby forced the irregular past participle because the verb is irregular. If that doesn't make as much sense as you'd like, work with it a while and it will clarify itself.
The past perfect: By the time something happened, something else had already happened, e.g, By the time the police arrived, the robbers had fled, or, When I awoke, the sun had hit the snooze button and it was raining cats and dogs. The robbers were already gone and the sun was already gone; nothing there but cops and water.
As a practical matter, you should consider the past tense the 'default', to borrow from computers, and if it works, use it. If "she and her colleagues took grammar classes in college" makes sense, use it.
I hope this helps.
.brad.26jan11.
________________________________
From: "Weiss, Jeffrey" <[log in to unmask]>
To: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 12:38:17 PM
Subject: RE: Texas is getting explicit
I agree that yours is correct, of course. But why is mine wrong? It's past perfect. In the context of the passage, its an activity they <had completed> completed before starting to teach. The second activity from the past is understood rather than stated, to be sure, but does that make the sentence grammatically wrong?
Maybe so. I do not claim to be an expert technical grammarian...1:-{)>
(Thank you for being a reader, in any case!)
Jeffrey Weiss
The Dallas Morning News
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
469-330-5632
________________________________________
From: Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 9:01 AM
To: Weiss, Jeffrey
Subject: Texas is getting explicit
Richardson schools retool grammar instruction to meet new Texas education mandates
By JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News, Saturday, January 15, 2011
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
"Of course, she and her colleagues had taken grammar classes in college."
Good article, Jeffrey, but note, speaking of good grammar, that she and her colleagues took grammar classes in college.
.brad.15jan11.
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