Thanks. I don't think I had a point, exactly . . . just was wondering
about the "reach" of ateg. I have mostly lurked, so I'm not that
familiar with everyone who is subscribed, and as you mention, some of
the comments seemed to be part of a broader conversation that we weren't
having right here on the ateg list.
Anyone who hears the things I say to the tv news would know that I am
as passionate as anyone, w/this topic too, and I really appreciate it
when people taking the time to post informed commentary.
I teach a course on "English Grammar & Usage"--it's grad level, but
still fairly introductory, often the only "linguistics" type course my
English M.A. students will have. We use Kolln/Funk's Understanding
English Grammar and Haussamen's Revising the Rules as our primary texts,
and I like to supplement with contemporary language debates as much as
possible, in order to help students recognize that we have
history/scholarship to draw on when considering such issues. I used to
use the first chapter of Harvey Daniels' Famous Last Words as a
supplementary reading on the English-only topic, but it's a bit dated
now. I'll be happily browsing for alternative readings for next spring,
now that the topic is current again.
Beth
>>> [log in to unmask] 5/22/2006 3:20:57 PM >>>
Beth,
I suspect there are issues that some of us have a hard time being
dispassionate about. Some of our recent threads testify to this, and
it's not a problem if one's passion intrudes a bit into the
discussion,
as long as we're willing to examine dispassionately the things we
believe passionately. I think this may have been Peyman's first
posting, although I'm not sure of that. I too had a hard time putting
P's comments into the context of the discussion to that point. Or
have
I missed your point?
Herb
Hello Herb,
I appreciate your thoughtful comments on this topic--particularly the
slogan at the end. I appreciate Craig's and others' contributions too.
A question: Is the current political climate so heated that even
ATEG-list-ers cannot discuss this issue dispassionately? Or, is the
ATEG list so open that people who are sensitized to the political
dimensions of this issue can easily join our discussion?
I mean no criticism or disrespect either way. Language is important
and it's entirely appropriate for people to bring personal experiences
and feelings to the table. I'm just wondering how/in what context the
list is being accessed.
Beth
>>> [log in to unmask] 5/21/2006 9:28:11 PM >>>
Dear Peyman,
I'd like you to put this exchange in context. I set the discussion
off
by commenting, somewhat ironically, on Pres. Bush's immigration
speech,
his insistance that immigrants learn English, and the lack of
government
support for them to do so. The focus of the discussion has been on
Hispanic immmigrants because that was the issue Bush and Congress were
dealing with, immigrants crossing the southern border into the US, the
vast majority of them Spanish speakers. No one said, "only immigrants
from Mexico are immigrants," and I strongly doubt that anyone on the
ATEG list is so poorly informed as to believe that. I have lived in
the
Southwest, and, in fact, most of the Hispanic population in the
Southwest is Native American. Much of the Hispanic immigrant
population
in the US is also Native American. I'm also puzzled by your question
of
whether "a Hopi person or an apache person would ... not be able to
find
a job due to not knowing Spanish." I don't believe that anyone in
this
discussion was defending only one minority group to the exclusion of
all
others. Again, the context was Pres. Bush's speech and the current
political issues around immigration across our southern border.
As to making English the official language of the US, that issue
hasn't
been raised at all. However, since you've raised it, let me address
it.
Ever since John Adams was president, early in the history of this
country, there have been attempts to legislate English as the official
language of the US. No such legislation has ever succeeded. A number
of states have passed official English legislation, and most of these
laws have been struck down in state and federal courts as
discriminatory
and as violating the First Amendment. This has been the case in
Alabama, Arizona, and Alaska, as well as other states. If you look at
census fgiures on non-English speaking residents of the US, the number
is less than five percent of the US population, a number made up of
new
immigrants, of young children, and of older family members who do not
work outside the home.
There is no need for legal pressure to learn English. It's very
strongly economic. To build a life and to prosper in the US pretty
much
demands a command of English. The historic cycle of immigrant
language
learning, which continues with contemporary immigrants, is that
immigrant adults who do not know English learn it as well as they can.
Their children grow up bilingual. Their children's children grow up
as
monolingual English speakers who preserve some of the cultural
practices
of their heritage.
I write as a first generation native speaker of English. My parents,
both of whom were born in this country in 1906, were monolingual
German
speakers until they started school at the age of seven. That was when
they began to learn English. They were both bilingual adults. My
family spoke German at home for the 11 years of my parents' marriage
before I was born. My father was a Lutheran pastor in a small town
south of Detroit, where there was a sizable German-Russian population
that wanted worship services conducted in both English and German.
During World War II, FBI agents would come down from Detroit about
every
other Sunday to sit in on my father's sermons and check them for
subversive content. When I was born in 1942, my family decided to
stop
speaking German at home. The war, the FBI, and the fact that my elder
siblings all spoke English in school together combined to make
switching
to English a desirable choice. As a result, my younger sister and I
did
not grow up bilingual.
My mother tells a story of when she was a girl in Hamtramck, MI. My
grandfather was pastor of the local Lutheran church, and my mother
attended the parochial school. The neighborhood was made up of
German,
Hungarian, and Russian immigrants. The children played together and
all
picked up a bit of each other's languages. The parents of all three
groups used English outside the home and encouraged their children to
also. Many of these children attended the Lutheran parochial school
where all morning subjects were in German and all afternoon subjects
were in English. The children of all three groups studied both German
and English. My mother told me that on Nov. 11, 1918, when the
armistice was announced, all the teachers and children gathered around
the flagpole in front of the school and sang "Now Thank we all our
God"--in German.
Language policy and linguistic acculturation are complex issues that
don't lend themselves well to slogans, but slogans, unfortunately, are
what we get from politicians and from the media.
So I'll end with an argument that smacks of a slogan: legislating
English as the official language of the US is a solution in search of
a
problem.
Herb
--- "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> This is true. There is a long-standing
> Spanish-speaking population in
> the Southwest, especially Texas, New Mexico, and
> Arizona that long
> predates Anglo domination of those areas. That
> Hispanic settlement is
> in the neighborhood of 350 to 400 years old, so you
> are certainly right
> your implication that Spanish has been spoken much
> longer than English
> in parts of what is now the United States. To
> consider the descendents
> of these early settlers to be interlopers,
> immigrants, or in any way not
> as fully American citizens as anyone else is not
> only historically
> ignorant but insultingly jingoist. Of course, it
> fits in very nicely
> with the Disneyesque Alamo myth (a little irony
> again).
>
> Herb
>
> Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
>
> >Omar,
> >
> >Note my posting to Jose on irony. I'd go with 500
> years. 600 seems a
> >stretch.
> >
> >
> My parents are in New Mexico. It was one of the
> first areas of European
> settlement in North America. The locals still speak
> a peculiar kind of
> Spanish, or so I have been told. Not everyone who
> speaks Spanish is a
> "wet back". People in the Southwest seem to
> understand this.
>
> Omar
>
I am an immgrant myself, a naturalized citizen, and I
don't believe the perspective you are presenting here
is fair. To say that only immigrants from Mexico are
immigrants, and to say that only they don't have to
learn English is wrong. It exludes other immigrant
groups. Also the southwest, if any of you ever
actually spend time there, is originally native
american; how do you like the fact that because of
rhetoric like this, a Hopi person or an apache person
would finally leave the reservation, go to phoenix or
albaquerque, and not be able to find a job due to not
knowing Spanish? How is that ever fair in America?
When you continually defend one minority group and
only one minority group, you are excluding all other
minorities. English as the official language of the
United States protects all minorities and not just
one, as you tend to push for.
sincerely, an immigrant by the way.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
