Herb,
Thanks for your reply. I do tend to think of Standard English as the source
and as fixed, but that idea is not based on the facts obviously. I should
know better!
Are there other double modals that were used in Middle or Early Modern
English besides those mentioned?
--
Christine Reintjes Martin
[log in to unmask]
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: elided infinitives (trying again)
>Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 02:39:43 -0500
>
>I suspect that Southeastern double modals are more likely a historical
>inheritance than a regional innovation. Double modals weren't unusual in
>Middle English or Early Modern English. The fact that Standard English
>doesn't have them is because it's lost them. Your suggestion that this is
>"yet another case of spoken dialect reducing the number of words and
>keeping the meaning" assumes that the standard dialect that the standard
>has a source relationship to non-standard relationships rather than being
>simply another variety of English, albeit the economically, politically,
>and socially successful one. Of course, the elliptical nature of spoken
>language is a characteristic of speech as opposed ot writing, and, since
>most writing is in Standard Written English, not non-standard dialects,
>spoken language will often appear to leave things out that are recoverable
>from context.
>
>Herb
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Christine
>Reintjes
>Sent: Fri 11/5/2004 9:38 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: elided infinitives (trying again)
>
>
>
>Hi Richard,
>
>I live in Morehead City, so I know these double modals well.
>
>* I might could get there.
>* She might can do it.
>*He used to could do it but can't anymore
>
>I was trying to explain the difference between "can, could and to be able
>to" to an ESL student recently. My students hear the double modals all the
>time. It seems like yet another case of spoken dialect reducing the number
>of words and keeping the meaning.
>
>I might be able to get there.
>She might be able to do it.
>He used to be able to do it but can't anymore.
>
>
>--
>
>Christine Reintjes Martin
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> ><[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: elided infinitives (trying again)
> >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:37:24 -0500
> >
> >In my corner of North Carolina, the following double modals are all
> >common expressions:
> >
> >
> >
> >* I might could get there.
> >* She might can do it.
> >* He used to could do it but can't anymore.
> >
> >________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >Richard Veit
> >
> >Department of English, UNCW
> >
> >Wilmington, NC 28403-5947
> >
> >910-962-3324
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
> >Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 3:31 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: elided infinitives (trying again)
> >
> >
> >
> >Dick & Kent,
> >
> >
> >
> >I call the "nonfinite infinitive" a "bare infinitive" because it lacks
> >the grammatical marker "to." My inclination is to call any verb that
> >has primarily "modal" meaning a "modal" and distinguish between those
> >that take a marked infinitive and those that take a bare infinitive.
> >
> >
> >
> >A colleague of mine at lunch today used the construction "might could."
> >("A hypernova might could become a black hole.") In such an expression
> >the past tense form of a modal ("could" for "can") is being used as a
> >bare infinitive after the past tense form of another modal ("might" for
> >"may")! The first modal has subjective meaning, i.e., it tells about
> >the speakers attitude toward the assertion of the clause (he was
> >uncertain in his own mind about its truth); the second modal is telling
> >about the objective meaning, i.e., the probability of the situation in
> >the assertion actually obtaining (uncertainty about whether it actually
> >has to happen). Both of these modals can be used in either sense. Does
> >anyone teach this kind of thing?
> >
> >
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> > >>> [log in to unmask] 11/4/2004 1:13:27 PM >>>
> >
> >Kent,
> >
> >You're right. "I am going to run" is ambiguous.
> >
> >The "to run" in the sentence that paraphrases as "I am going (somewhere)
> >for the purpose of running" has an adverbial infinitive phrase. In the
> >other interpretation (paraphrase: "I will run"), "be going to" can be
> >considered a multi-word modal (the modals include will, shall, may, can,
> >and must). Modals are followed by nonfinite verbs (verbs without any
> >inflections). Your question then is whether those nonfinite verbs (e.g.,
> >"sing" in "He may sing tomorrow") can also be called "infinitives" or
> >whether that term is reserved for nonfinite verbs preceded by "to."
> >
> >Any answers out there?
> >
> >Dick Veit
> >
> >________________________
> >
> >Richard Veit
> >Department of English, UNCW
> >Wilmington, NC 28403-5947
> >910-962-3324
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
> >Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 1:06 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: elided infinitives (trying again)
> >
> >Dick,
> >
> >Thanks for the reply. By "elided infinitive" (there must be another
> >term), I don't mean the whole infinitive, but an infinitive with a
> >missing "to."
> >
> >Let me ask it this way: In the sentence "I am going to run," is the
> >"to" different if I mean that I am "on my way" to run, as opposed to my
> >meaning that I "plan to run" later in the day? Is there a missing,
> >contentless "to" in either of these sentences--dropped because we don't
> >use a contentless (as you put it) "to" when the infinitive is preceded
> >by a meaningful, prepostional "to"?
> >
> >I know the above is a really strange question, but I'm asking it in the
> >context of the Spanish grammatical issue I tried to explain in my post
> >yesterday.
> >
> >thanks much,
> >
> >Kent
> >
> >*
> >
> >I suppose the infinitive marker "to" could be called a "preposition"
> >in
> >the sense that it is in a "pre-position" in relation to a verb, but it
> >is otherwise quite different from the class of prepositions that
> >precede
> >noun phrases.
> >
> >For one thing, the preposition "to" can be defined in terms of
> >meaning:
> >"in the direction toward; reaching as far as, etc." whereas the
> >infinitive marker "to" is contentless, unparaphrasable, and definable
> >only in terms of function (a marker that precedes an infinitive). I'd
> >call the latter "to" its own part of speech, namely an infinitive
> >marker.
> >
> >As for elided infinitives, do you mean things like "Mary was elected
> >treasurer," which could be said to be reduced from "Mary was elected
> >to
> >be treasurer"?
> >
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