Herb,
    Great plan. There would, I think, be two parts to it--what do we agree
to assign the term "past perfect" to (as a form) and how does that
form function in discourse. I think it would also help to look at the
past perfect at work in a text that most people admire. Maybe I'll
take on that part of it.

Craig>

Craig,
>
> This is a good suggestion, that we have a substantive, productive
> discussion of the past perfect.  Brad wants a definition that will work
> for a fifth grader, and we've pretty much agreed that a simpler treatment
> works at that level but that such a treatment doesn't work as a
> description of a grammatical phenomenon.  The quest for a definition is
> itself part of the problem since what grammarians do is describe
> phenomena.  Definitions, to the extent that they are possible and useful,
> have to change over time, and language change is never smooth, allowing a
> neat change to a definition.
>
> I'll work on a description of the past perfect, considering its history
> and the fact that it's a composite form combining tense and aspect.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: NOT In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
>
> Geoff,
>     The problem, as I see it, is that we have NOT had a productive
> discussion of the past perfect.  To do so would require taking Brad
> out of the equation. He brings up the question, then denounces any
> position he doesn't agree with. People get angry and it goes downhill
> from there. Brad seems intent on denying center stage to any position
> other than his own.
>     I'm not sure I would call what he adds "spice." Last time I was at 4
> C's, two people told me they quit the list, citing Brad. We are losing
> people, and unfortunatly, people who are themselves teachers, not just
> gadflys.
>
> Craig>
>
>
>> There's more than a little irony in this discussion about the need for
>> list moderation, presumably due to our past perfect friend (PPF -
>> that's to be dinstinguished from a BFF). The irony, quite simply, is
>> that said friend generates more discussions about topics both
>> important and quaint than just about anybody else, so if we kissed PPF
>> goodbye, the number of postings would drop dramatically. If you don't
>> like the past perfect discussions, don't participate - and if you want
>> to talk about something else, then serve up something that the group
>> will find more interesting than the past perfect! Besides, our PPF
>> adds a certain amount of shall we say spice to the conversation - after
>> all, he got this topic going!
>>
>> Geoff Layton
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 21:58:39 -0500
>> From: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The Linguist List works as a moderated list only because it is funded
>> by grants and by contributions from its user community so that it is
>> able to hire and train graduate students to do monitoring and various
>> other support tasks.  I remember when it was not moderated, and it was
>> prone to the sorts of problems we're talking about now.  While
>> LinguistList is an invaluable source of information for the
>> profession, I do miss the free exchange of ideas, in spite of the
>> occasional bad manners.
>>
>> We can always delete or block postings from particular participants if
>> we wish, but, much as I dislike the occasional tone discussions have
>> taken here I would regret to see the list moderated, even minimally.
>> It is unfortunate that some choose not to participate because of that
>> occasional unpleasantness, but writing teachers, language arts
>> teachers, linguists, grammarians, editors, etc. are all prone to the
>> same fits of temper and bad manners as the rest of the population.
>> Blocking the extremes unfortunately also blocks the occasional very
>> interesting thought.  A civil society deserves that adjective only
>> because it tolerates the odd incivility.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
>> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:39 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
>>
>>
>>
>> I would second Dick's suggestion; however, the problem, I think, would
>> be to find someone to do the moderating.  As I understand it, this can
>> be a time consuming task on some lists (perhaps not quite so bad on
>> ATEG), and I suspect there isn't enough money to hire a moderator.  Any
>> suggestions?
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
>> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 4:23:38 PM
>> Subject: In support of a (minimally) moderated listserv
>>
>> This listserv is currently unmoderated and entirely unrestricted in
>> content, allowing anyone to post anything whatever and relying solely
>> on occasional appeals to participants' better natures to preserve
>> civility.
>> At the same time many have lamented that the listserv has lost
>> membership because of the online behavior of one or two persons. Some
>> repeatedly try to persuade those individuals to act better, even in
>> the face of abundant evidence that all previous such efforts have had
>> exactly the opposite effect.
>>
>> I favor a lightly moderated listserv, with a published set of
>> minimally restrictive standards and intervention by a moderator only
>> in the rarest, most egregious, and most persistent violations of those
>> standards.
>>
>> The argument for non-moderation is that academic discourse should be
>> an open marketplace, with all ideas free to compete without
>> restriction imposed on the basis of orthodoxy or popularity. I agree
>> completely. No one should ever be excluded from this listserv because
>> their ideas are unorthodox or unpopular or considered discredited. We
>> can all cite ideas once considered crackpot that are today's paradigms.
>>
>> Openness is but one of two essential factors in a functioning
>> marketplace of ideas. The other is dialogue. Ideas must be exchanged and
>> debated.
>> People who propose ideas must be willing to defend them and to respond
>> to reasonable objections to their arguments. People must also feel
>> free to engage in debate with others without fear that by so doing
>> they will be subject to personal attacks or harassment.
>>
>> Some proponents of an unmoderated list might argue that any
>> restrictions, no matter how reasonable or minimal, would create the
>> slippery slope to totalitarianism, and that we have no choice but to
>> suffer bad behavior even if it means members flee the list in droves.
>> I would argue that reasonable people can draw a reasonable line, and
>> that standards would in fact preserve rather than stifle discussion and
>> dialogue.
>>
>> Standards, as I said, should be minimal. You may propose or discuss
>> any ideas within the broad framework of teaching grammar and (even
>> broader) language in general. You may disagree with, challenge, or
>> even express antipathy or respond sarcastically toward the ideas of
>> others, but you may not attack other members personally, or ridicule,
>> intimidate, or harass them (on or off list). You must be willing to
>> engage in debate and to respond to reasonable challenges to the ideas
>> you express. You may not shout the same assertions over and over
>> without ever explaining or defending them.
>>
>> The moderator's job would be to do very little. In the face of
>> egregious violations of these standards, the moderator should
>> privately remind the offender of the standards. If the first
>> admonition goes unheeded, the moderator should issue a second reminder
>> with a warning. If that too fails, the moderator may remove the
>> offender from the listserv. How do we safeguard against abuse by the
>> moderator? We must assume that a reasonable person can apply
>> reasonable standards. We can direct that the moderator notify the list
>> of any removal (quoting the prior warnings issued) and hold off if there
>> is considerable opposition.
>>
>> If I have learned anything from this listserv over the years it is
>> that some people make a sport of disrupting listservs. No social
>> pressure will ever moderate their behavior--in fact, provoking such a
>> reaction is exactly what they most enjoy. Only the threat of removal
>> will have an effect.
>>
>> And now anyone is free to oppose (or second) my proposal.
>>
>> Dick
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
>
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>
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