Johanna,

I'll try and get some notes down and send them off list. At the moment I have
enormous piles of marking and the various forums I click into also take a lot
of reading time! I'll have to become more disciplined and reduce my time here
to get my 'real' work done and 'earn' my living.

+ Dear all,

The turn the list is taking gives me some hope that our friend the passive
will rise again phoenix like!

I got quite agitated after reading the 'Plain English' site, thinking --
hold on here! I’m fed up with the passive being buffeted.

This is a site which is for government officials whose main aim is to reach a
great many people with, I imagine, varying degrees of proficiency  in English.
So they make it as easy to understand as possible. I can understand this. But
this doesn’t have to be made into a standard for learning grammar or creative
writing in English. We might as well reduce everything to a meta-language. I
don’t get over extravagant when I’m writing my shopping list either. However,
I will choose my words with care, embellish them with images and maybe flow
into ‘foggy’ philosophy when writing comforting words to a friend whose mother
has died – if I know that’s what they appreciate.

There are so many levels of language and they are right in the right place. We
have to know these for our own protection and we have to recognize and teach
them. Otherwise we are depriving our students of the right to use their
language to its full capacity and to protect themselves fom others who do have
a well trained 'gift of the gab'.

The 'detail' into which we go to illustrate these levels in grammar training
will depend on the age of the student.
Paul Donoger wrote
>they could mistakenly interpret simple sentences like this as passive:

"I am confused about the passive voice."

If they read "confused" as a past participle (which it sometimes is) instead
of as a subject complement ........<

For example a 7th grader can cope with:
The passive voice confuses me
and convert easily to:
I'm confused by the passive.

We have to give them simulated situations, like the simulation cockpit for a
pilot, and draw their attention to particular instances.Too much detail in
grammar too early is just as destructive as none. Dealing with a subject
complement will become easier later if school kids are allowed to work through
a broad definition before becoming preciser.
It's like tidying up the garage:
2 big piles a)I want to keep b) I don't want to want to keep
b) get divided into 1)throw away and 2)give away
2) gets divided into boxes with names or for anyone who wants it
etc.
The higher the class the more detail they can cope with, if the foundation is
laid.

Bob Yates,
Perhaps you could expand on:

>under this definition, a perfect construction could be
identified as a passive construction as well as a progressive
construction.>

I can't think of an example.

Greetings

Patsi Reeve-De Becker


Johanna Rubba wrote:

> Patsi,
>
> Don't fear going into too much detail about your successful teaching
> methods. That kind of thing is what a lot of members of this list are
> looking for -- methods and activities that work. I'd like a
> more-detailed description of the activities you describe for younger
> kids -- they sound wonderful. I'm going to be working with a middle
> school on grammar teaching (ages 9-13) and I'm sure the teachers there
> would love to try out some of your ideas.
>
> They also sound terrific for adapting for older, 'grammar-deprived' kids!
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba   Assistant Professor, Linguistics
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> One Grand Avenue  • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> Tel. (805)-756-2184  •  Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone.  756-259
> • E-mail: [log in to unmask] •  Home page: http://www.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>                                        **
> "Understanding is a lot like sex; it's got a practical purpose,
> but that's not why people do it normally"  -            Frank  Oppenheimer
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~