I, too, question references to "all the research" that supposedly shows
that learning gramar does not affect writing skill.  Has Bill McLeary
never heard of research being superseded by more research? The first
question I ask when I hear about that research is "How was this grammar
being taught that had no effect on students' writing?"  I'm sure there are
thousands of U.S. history classes that have no effect on students' civic
consciousness.  I would not consider this proof that a well-taught U.S.
history class cannot affect students' civic consciousness.

I have been at meetings where speakers have discussed the problems with
some of the research on which the NCTE anti-grammar statement was based.
As I recall, Bill McLeary was there, too.

On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, EDWARD VAVRA wrote:

> I was going to challenge Bill, but Mr. Lunde has done it for me. Bill has fallen into the habit of referring to "all the evidence" or "all the research," but he has failed to mention anything specific. As Hirsch says in The Schools We Need, these references to research have been repeated so often that they are now believed simply because they have been repeated so often.
> Ed V.
>
> >>> "Lunde, Peter" <[log in to unmask]> 01/06 1:24 PM >>>
> Amy,
>
> Mr. McCleary has been shooting down all responders who challenge his notion
> that "writing" and "grammar" are not connected. I am 56 years old. I come
> from a generation that was taught grammar from the first grade on. We
> diagrammed sentences, wrote essays, and broke those essays down into their
> parts of speech. This taught us the basic mechanics of language that clear
> away questions relating to proper part of speech usage and variation.
>
> Today it seems, anything that comes out of the mind of a student is termed
> "writing," or so it seems that McCleary wants it that way. He is entirely in
> another territory here, and that place is called expository or creative
> writing, something completely different from the mechanics of writing, of
> which grammar is an important part.
>
> My wife is from Russia. She speaks and writes English so fluently that I am
> amazed she wasn't born here. How is it, you might ask, that someone from
> Russia who can speak and write English so well, outperforms many people
> here?  In Russia, when students learn English, they learn grammar right next
> to the speaking part. And they learn it cold. She explained to me that
> without the grammar rules, she would not be able to speak and write so
> effectively.
>
> Does Mr. McCleary actually think that any great writer, like Lawrence or
> Conrad,  did not know their English grammar? That everyone is a born savant
> who instinctively writes? This is irresponsible claptrap and the product of
> university insulation from what is needed as opposed to the theory of what
> is needed. Stick to your guns and keep the grammar in. Try to bring
> diagramming back in, it works and students will remember what it teaches.
>
> Pete Lunde
> Technical Publications  RSM
> BMC Software  2100 City West  Houston TX  77042
> (713) 918-7321
>