>On Ed Vavra: By now we should expect him to be uncivil in his commentaries. 
>He appears to be impervious to correction.

I'm not sure that Ed needs correction.  I think he is right to point out 
that our discussion of the minutia of grammar, while of interest to many on 
this list, does not speak to the needs of others, particularly those of us 
at the secondary level, who are required to produce sound writing from 
students who seem at times to be almost illterate.  The major issue for Ed 
and me is not how to have students determine the correct appelation of 
clauses beginning with "that", but rather how to help them create sentences 
that just plain old make sense.  In fact, I find that even Ed's KISS program 
is too focused on what to call things rather than on how to use them.

That said, however, I still find the technical discussions here great fun - 
it's nice to know that there is still a place where grammar at all levels is 
an important part of people's lives.

Geoff Layton

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