Sorry about "cynbaird," but you did not include your name.
       I'm not sure that I want to write the textbook that does exactly
that, but in a sense I already am, and the "textbook" is free and on the
web. The KISS site already includes Robert Einarsson's  "Embedded and
Aligned Phrase Structures." See:
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/im/Einarsson/Einarsson.htm
The Instructional Matrices also include "A BASIC SEVENTH GRADE GRAMMAR
COURSE," by Father Laurence Kriegshauser, O.S.B. It is a description of
an interesting way of diagramming. I need to move this into the
workbooks, but it is currently at:
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/im/Fr_Laurence/Fr_Laurence.htm

      Personally, I do not see either type of diagramming as essential,
but there is room for both (and much more) in the KISS workbooks. If
anyone wants to contribute explanations of, or exercises for, any type
of diagramming that would fit within the KISS framework, I will be happy
to put it in the workbooks. If people are familiar with helpful
diagramming material that uses other terminology, I would be happy to
link to it. Part of the problem here, as in all questions of grammar, is
that there is not one set of rules for R-K diagramming, there are
several variations. And that is even more true of tree diagrams. I
would, therefore, be very concerned that any such diagramming exercises
within the KISS workbooks be consistent with KISS terminology. The
consistent terminology is, perhaps, the greatest attraction of the site
for many teachers.

     I am, by the way, also the person who said that most college
Freshmen cannot identify the subjects and verbs in their own writing.
Since you are teaching high school, perhaps you could contact your local
college English department. Ask them if you can have five minutes in
several of the Freshman comp classes, and use that five minutes to give
a simple test (or  ask the instructors to do it for you). Give each
student the same  three to five short sentences, and simply ask them to
underline the subjects once and the verbs twice. If you really want to
be amazed, be sure to include "is," "was," "were," and "of" in the
sentences.

     As for what college composition teachers want, they do not all
agree. However, many of my colleagues here at Penn College, although
they think I am crazy, regularly thank me for fighting for better,
simpler instuction in grammar. They would be VERY happy if students
could identify subjects, verbs, and clauses in their own writing. Many
of them, for example, would love to discuss passive voice with students,
but they realize that such discussion is meaningless if the students
cannot identify verbs in the first place.

Thanks,
Ed V.



>>> [log in to unmask] 01/16/04 12:44PM >>>
I absolutely agree with you!  Want to write the textbook that does
exactly that?!!

Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Might it be possible to agree that
middle school students could
(dare I say "should"?) be introduced to, and asked to do some,
Reed-Kellogg diagrams? As some people noted, such diagrams help many
students visualize sentence structure. I think there is generally
agreement that R-K diagrams become extremely cumbersome when they are
applied to complicated, long sentences, but they still may be useful
for
many students. Then, might we agree that in high school students could
(should?) be introduced to tree-diagrams? As several people noted,
tree-diagrams better reflect some linguistic principles that R-K does
not.
Ed

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/