I had assumed from the form of the heading that the post I received from
Peter Lunde was sent only to me, but now I see that it went to the list as
well. Therefore, I'm posting what I replied to him.


Mr. Lunde,

I can't tell from the heading of your post whether it was sent to me
personally, off-list, or was sent to everyone. I'll assume the former.

I appreciate the sincerity of your response, but I'm afraid that you
remember a world that did not exist and are describing a present world that
does not exist either. I started school in the mid-1940s, and the world you
describe for that era is so far from the world I experienced that we might
have lived in different countries. Just to mention a few aspects: No
grammar was taught until the sixth grade; sixth and seventh grades were
both taught by elementary teachers; ninth grade English was taught by the
band teacher, tenth and eleventh grades were taught by the Latin teacher,
and there was no grammar in twelfth grade. (As best I can remember, of
course.)

Our personal experience of the world is too limited to allow us to draw
accurate generalizations about the state of the nation or its education or
its students. Furthermore, a limited sense of recall allows us to imagine
that we learned things in one way when we actually learned them another
way. And when someone does educational research in an attempt to find out
what the true state of the larger community is, the results of that
research are often derided and disregarded if they don't fit in with what
we have already decided is true. Educational research can be done badly, of
course, but we seem to judge the research not by its research design but by
whether we agree with the findings.

The fact is that repeated reserch on grammar and composition has repeatedly
found that there is no connection between learning grammar and learning to
write. And there is considerable evidence as well that students do not
learn the grammar that is taught.

I am suggesting that those of us who are interested in grammar quit trying
to deny reality and take a fresh look at why grammar is so difficult to
learn and similar issues.

Bill

>Mr. McCleary,
>
>I have been following this dialogue about grammar for a while and have some
>thoughts to share with you.
>
>There was a time in this country (1950's and before) when various
>grade-school disciplines were taught rigorously and consistently.
>Mathematics, science, social studies, and English were staples that required
>students to study and work hard. Standards were high, and those that did not
>make the grade were held back. When I went to school in the 50's, I learned
>grammar thoroughly and well. I was expected to learn it, and we studied it
>consistently throughout grades 1-6.  Also, my teachers knew grammar well,
>and there was never confusion over what things meant. Am I now to believe
>that kids back then were smarter than kids today?
>
>Grammar is like playing a musical instrument: if you do not learn or
>practice it, you will not be able to play. Of course grammar is hard.
>Nothing of substance in the classroom is easily gotten. Those who engage in
>a basic discipline like grammar, without complaint, benefit all along their
>educational path.
>
>Today, much of what passes as basic education has been stood on its head.
>Students are "customers" and teachers are "suppliers." Everyone is urged to
>be "practical" and only learn what is needed to get a job. The educational
>system has been dumbed down to its lowest common denominators so that the
>weakest minds can graduate from school. English  as a subject is very much
>glossed over to the point where many students cannot write a simple,
>sensible paper let alone sentence.
>
>Also, Teachers coming out of colleges are incredibly weak in the disciplines
>that they teach. Instead of strong fact-based knowledge about subjects, they
>excel in child psychology and sociological "understanding." Should I have
>been amazed when my daughter was marked wrong for identifying London as the
>capital of England instead of Glasgow, which the teacher thought was the
>correct location? I teach a required Technical Writing course to Juniors and
>Seniors at the University of Houston, and the weakest students I have,
>consistently, are the Education majors.
>
>I am familiar with educational systems in Europe such as the Russian system.
>Russian schools demand an incredible standard of learning and performance
>from all students. When Russian kids take English as a second language,
>grammar is taught right along with the reading and speaking portion. I would
>challenge American teachers to take and pass their high school grammar test,
>which is a required part of their curriculum. The students from Russia I
>teach in my tech writing class speak, read, and write English better than
>any of my American students. Maybe the Russian approach is very old
>fashioned, but the results do not lie. I would ask you, in light of your
>thesis "Grammar is difficult if not impossible to teach to the point of
>practical application", how then a Russian student of English can do better
>than an American counterpart? The secret is not in the grammar alone but
>what it takes to learn it.
>
>I cringe when I read educator cop-outs over subjects like grammar. They
>should know better. The fact remains that all levels of the secondary
>educational system have gotten weak and non-committed. The ultimate
>responsibility for the failure of grammar studies lies with teachers and
>their professors. On the student side, learning responsibility  remains with
>parents who should demand excellent performance from their children. If
>lousy students show up in my class, do I cater to their ignorance? Never.
>Nothing replaces the value of high standards, hard schoolwork, and
>perseverance.
>
>There should be no excuses for poor teachers and lazy performance by
>students. Engaging in research-based cop-outs allow Americans to lean back
>and do nothing. The real world needs the strong standards of subjects like
>grammar back in the classroom, and it needs it now more than ever.
>
>Pete Lunde
>BMC Software Inc.
>University of Houston
>
>[log in to unmask]


William J. McCleary
3247 Bronson Hill Road
Livonia, NY 14487
716-346-6859