While I support free speech and abhor Socialized medicine, I see no
reason to debate what I like or dislike in a site devoted to Teachers
of English Grammar beyond discussing the language used. I oppose
Obama and his politics. So what? I make my comments on sites related
to politics--not to grammar. An objection to the term 'death panel'
does not justify a long excursion into Socialist politics or Libertarian
counterpoints. I will not reply to Professor Wright or defend Professor
Yates because this venue is inappropriate for such a discussion.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 21 Aug 2009 to 22 Aug 2009 (#2009-182)
There are 6 messages totalling 1691 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Bob Yates remarks about the NHS (3)
2. dialects
3. corpus project ideas
4. Signal to noise ratio; phonetics
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 12:41:57 +0100
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Bob Yates remarks about the NHS
> Colleagues,
I don't know whether I am the only British contributor, but I feel I have to
respond to Bob Yates's comment about our National Health Service. I hope
you will excuse me making such a response in this milieu but I would like to
show Bob, as a pro-Obama citizen, that things are not as bad as Fox News may
have led him to fear.
These opponents of a health service have probably got their gothic accounts
of a 'death panel' from the existence of the committee which judges on
whether the latest drugs can be made available to all hospitals. It is
obvious that some new, specialized, and hideously expensive drug cannot be
immediately made freely available to all hospitals because that would mean
that money for other patients would be unfairly restricted. Over here we
are prepared to recognize that, under a free service which ministers to all
as British citizens irrespective of their economic status, a measure of
justice must prevail. To describe this committee as a 'death panel' is a
gross insult, one which ignores the underlying patriotic fairness of its
purpose. Remember that we do not have 46 million people without insurance!
No one is going to become bankrupt -- or even die -- here because they have
a chronic disease and have exhausted their private insurance. Yes, it may
be true that over here some one does die six months earlier than they might
have done had they had the hideously expensive drug, but a hundred other
patients would have suffered as a result. There is a moral issue here, a
real problem, that this Foxy propaganda is encouraging you to ignore.
As Bob suggests, it seems a great deal of mischievous misinformation is
being peddled over there about our NHS in an endeavour to frighten voters
off. I have had on a number of occasions to call upon the help of our
health service, and all of them have been prompt, excellent, and, of course,
utterly free, both at the level of visits to the local doctor and to the
Addenbrooke's Hospital at Cambridge (which has an international reputation
-- and is now hugely expanding its cancer research facility). I had a touch
of food poisoning lately (having kept something in the freezer too long!)
and was treated (with rapid results) within an hour when I turned up
unannounced at the hospital's Accident and Emergency department. Ten years
ago, my wife was treated at this hospital for her terminal cancer, and
received close and concerned attention throughout. Since then, I have been
supporting the Oncology department and the Palliative Care department -- I
include the latter because the people in that department gave her unstinting
care and sympathy. Charitable assistance is still given to this national
institution! I am off to a lecture, banquet and entertainment evening next
month arranged for supporters of the hospital -- Sir David Frost is the
speaker.
Yours,
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
Colleagues,
>
> I wish it were true that being silent would lead to less incivility, but I
> don't think so.
>
> I don't think Barney Frank should have been silent when he was asked by
> someone holding a picture of Obama looking like Hitler why he was
supporting a
> Nazi-type health care plan. There is no "civil answer," especially for Fox
> News to that question. I think Barney Frank was perfectly civil to ask
that
> person what planet she spends most of her time on.
>
> You cannot remain silent when people claim the House bill has Death Panels
> (like the ones in the UK that would have meant Stephen Hawking would not
have
> lived to adulthood).
>
> Although you don't want to get into a shouting match with people who are
> carrying guns at a demonstration (and you probably shouldn't), you don't
have
> to be silent and let them think this is proper behavior in a democracy.
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
>
>
>
>>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 8/21/2009 10:17 AM >>>
> As we're seeing currently in the health care debate, free speech sometimes
> brings with it a high signal to noise rate. It's a price we pay.
> Fortunately, as a group of English teachers, we've practiced a strong
support
> for free speech. As Paul suggests, the best way to reduce noise is to
ignore
> it.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: 2009-08-21 10:39
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug
2009
> (#2009-179)
>
> Scott, et al,
>
> I have suggested this before, but here it goes again: If we all decided
not
> to respond to incivility, to empty arguments, or to undesired
commentaries,
> the level of noise would be greatly reduced. Silence can be a powerful
> persuader to make others be silent!
>
> Paul D.
>
> P.S. To the gentleman who asked to be removed from the list: Since no list
> member has the power to remove you, you need to follow the instructions at
the
> bottom of every posting: "To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit
> the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select 'Join or leave the list'."
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:32:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug
2009
> (#2009-179)
>
> I most agree with Rick Henry that the signal to noise ratio is becoming
> somewhat unbearable. Those who like argument for argument's sake should
> consider a list such as Grammar Police: they love arguing for the sake of
> arguing.
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
> history & languages
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
Behalf
> Of ATEG automatic digest system
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)
>
> There are 7 messages totalling 3930 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Still Doing It Right (5)
> 2. Howdy, Y'all
> 3. Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 (#2009-178)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
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>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 07:30:50 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: dialects
--0-108162211-1250951450=:95398
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From today's (8/21) newspaper.
=A0
When Mike Rizzo began his non-playing career 26 years ago, he was a scout w=
ho ambitioned to be a general manager.
=A0
"If Queen Elizabeth knighthooded me and I would get the title Sir Usain Bol=
t, that would be very nice."
=A0
Bolt took off his orange shoes, which had taken him through eight races in =
six days.
=A0
"The school said she needed it, so I got her it."=0A=0A=0A
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--0-108162211-1250951450=:95398
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV id=3Dyiv591914039>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1266356260>
<DIV>From today's (8/21) newspaper.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When Mike Rizzo began his non-playing career 26 years ago, he was a sc=
out who ambitioned to be a general manager.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"If Queen Elizabeth knighthooded me and I would get the title Sir Usai=
n Bolt, that would be very nice."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bolt took off his orange shoes, which had taken him through eight race=
s in six days.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"The school said she needed it, so I got her it."</DIV></DIV></DIV></t=
d></tr></table><br>=0A=0A
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--0-108162211-1250951450=:95398--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:19:59 -0400
From: Linda Comerford <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: corpus project ideas
Bill and Ana,
Thank you for the helpful information about a corpus. I appreciate the
opportunity to learn about it and hope it was useful for others on this list
as well.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 4:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: corpus project ideas
Linda,
A corpus is basically a gigantic collection of text stored in a
computer-searchable form. The idea is to set up a big batch of real language
that is representative of a certain population (e.g. "modern American
newspaper English"). You're actually using a kind of corpus when you do a
Google search. If you do a Google search to find out roughly how many pages
use "on accident" rather than "by accident,"
you're doing linguistic research.
Given a good corpus, instead of simply making statements about how you
*think* people use the language, you can check to see how they actually do
use it. You can also look at the frequency with which things co-occur in
order to spot patterns, and the computer can do this for you very quickly
(and then you can run the number to see if what looks like it might be a
correlation is a statistically significant one or not). The kinds of corpora
that ATEGgers would be most interested in, I think, are those that are
representative of general American written English, esp.
ones that sample from a wide variety of genres.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 4:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: corpus project ideas
Could someone please tell me what a linguistic corpus is? That's a new
phrase to me. Thanks.
Linda
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: corpus project ideas
Here are few options, although there are probably hundreds more. Also, you
might find the site at [http://tiny.cc/corpora] useful -- it bookmarks a lot
of corpus analysis tools. --- Bill Spruiell
(1) Have each student pick two to five words from a list you provide -- and
include a bunch of words on the list that are commonly the focus of usage
debates (e.g. "comprise"). Have each student look at what 2-3 dictionaries
say about the words, then do a keyword-in-context search through the corpus.
The student then compares what the dictionary describes as the word's usage
with the actual usage in the corpus.
(2) An arguably more interesting version of (1) involves having students
work in small groups and investigate sets of semantically-related, but
charged, words as part of a kind of social or political analysis. One of the
corpus studies I've read, for example, looked at the distribution patterns
of "job" vs. "occupation" vs. "career" with intriguing results.
(3) Make a list of general constructions that can be "Corpus-searched"
without too many headaches -- for example, prepositional phrases with
"among" and "between" (the second you use "to," you're getting infinitives
in the mix, etc., so it's a headache). Divide the students into small
groups, assign each group one of those constructions, and ask the students
to see if they can make any observations about the distribution patterns,
and possible reasons for those (how often does a between-phrase come at the
beginning, vs. at the end?). If the corpus comprises samples from different
genres, they can also see if the distribution patterns seem genre-related.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 2:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: corpus project ideas
I would like to hear about these project ideas too--please post them to the
list!
Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University
Peoria, IL
Faculty Advisor
Bradley University Hillel
Bradley Fencing Club
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of R.
Michael Medley (ck)
Sent: Fri 8/21/2009 12:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: corpus project ideas
For an undergraduate Introduction to Linguistics class, I provide students
several options for short research projects. An option that I would like to
add this year is using a linguistic corpus such as Mark Davies'
Corpus
of Contemporary American English. The result of the students'
investigation will be a short 3-5 page paper, so I am not looking for a long
involved process.
Since I am one never to enjoy re-inventing the wheel, I'd appreciate hearing
ideas that any of you might have for structuring such a project and aiming
students in fruitful directions. If I use your idea, I will give credit in
the assignment description.
Just a reminder, these are first- and second-year college students who have
probably never had a linguistics course before, but they're motivated &
intelligent and catch on pretty quickly. Thanks.
R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
Professor of English
Eastern Mennonite University
1200 Park Road Harrisonburg, VA 22802
Ph: 540-432-4051 Fax: 540-432-4444
************************************
"Understanding and shared meaning, when it occurs, is a small miracle,
brought about by the leap of faith that we call 'communication across
cultures.'" --Claire Kramsch
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:23:04 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio; phonetics
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C0809F625EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bruce,
Thanks for the kind words. When I see the great teaching ideas and thought=
ful approaches to difficult problems of language and pedagogy, it gives me =
a lot of hope for the quality of education our children are getting now-and=
a real sense of humility.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: 2009-08-21 11:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio; phonetics
One person's signal is another person's noise. I apologize for any noise g=
enerated on my part. This may be some more.
I want to thank Herb for all his comments. He seems to be the backbone of =
this list and needs some commendation.
I have been studying the various accents of English. One concept that has =
helped me has been the idea of a KEYWORD. These words represent groups of =
words that contain certain sounds that systematically change between accent=
s in the various dialects. This, however, causes me some consternation. S=
ome groups are constituted differently in different dialects. I am beginni=
ng to wonder whether they are as useful as dialecticians make them out to b=
e. Maybe Herb can enlighten me. Apparently, "donkey" is changing from one=
group to another in NY dialects. "Monkey" is normally (my dialect) in the=
STRUT group and "donkey" in the LOT group. I take it that "donkey" has be=
en shifted to the STRUT group in NY. It seems that General American has al=
ready merged the British LOT and PALM groups so that neither sound is round=
ed. I think that these merges of groups have to do with accents, and the s=
hifts of individual words has to do with dialects. But sometimes when mult=
iple words have shifted, the whole idea of KEYWORDS does not seem to be as =
helpful.
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009=
(#2009-179)
As we're seeing currently in the health care debate, free speech sometimes =
brings with it a high signal to noise rate. It's a price we pay. Fortunat=
ely, as a group of English teachers, we've practiced a strong support for f=
ree speech. As Paul suggests, the best way to reduce noise is to ignore it=
.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: 2009-08-21 10:39
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009=
(#2009-179)
Scott, et al,
I have suggested this before, but here it goes again: If we all decided no=
t to respond to incivility, to empty arguments, or to undesired commentarie=
s, the level of noise would be greatly reduced. Silence can be a powerful =
persuader to make others be silent!
Paul D.
P.S. To the gentleman who asked to be removed from the list: Since no list =
member has the power to remove you, you need to follow the instructions at =
the bottom of every posting: "To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please v=
isit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg=
.html and select 'Join or leave the list'."
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable =
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:32:38 AM
Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009=
(#2009-179)
I most agree with Rick Henry that the signal to noise ratio is becoming
somewhat unbearable. Those who like argument for argument's sake should
consider a list such as Grammar Police: they love arguing for the sake of
arguing.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behal=
f Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)
There are 7 messages totalling 3930 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Still Doing It Right (5)
2. Howdy, Y'all
3. Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 (#2009-178)
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NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)=
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bruce,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks for the kind words. When I see the great teachi=
ng ideas
and thoughtful approaches to difficult problems of language and pedagogy, i=
t
gives me a lot of hope for the quality of education our children are gettin=
g
now—and a real sense of humility. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Bruce
Despain<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-08-21 11:46<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Signal to noise ratio; phonetics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>One person’s signal is another person’s noise.&n=
bsp; I apologize
for any noise generated on my part. This may be some more. <o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I want to thank Herb for all his comments. He seems to=
be
the backbone of this list and needs some commendation. <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have been studying the various <b><i>accents</i></b> of
English. One concept that has helped me has been the idea of a
KEYWORD. These words represent groups of words that contain certain
sounds that systematically change between accents in the various <b><i>dial=
ects</i></b>.
This, however, causes me some consternation. Some groups are constitu=
ted
differently in different dialects. I am beginning to wonder whether t=
hey
are as useful as dialecticians make them out to be. Maybe Herb can
enlighten me. Apparently, “donkey” is changing from one g=
roup to another
in NY dialects. “Monkey” is normally (my dialect) in the =
STRUT group and
“donkey” in the LOT group. I take it that “donkey&#=
8221; has been shifted to
the STRUT group in NY. It seems that General American has already mer=
ged
the British LOT and PALM groups so that neither sound is rounded. I t=
hink
that these merges of groups have to do with accents, and the shifts of
individual words has to do with dialects. But sometimes when multiple
words have shifted, the whole idea of KEYWORDS does not seem to be as
helpful. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>STAHLKE,
HERBERT F<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 21, 2009 9:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 A=
ug
2009 (#2009-179)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As we’re seeing currently in the health care debate, f=
ree speech
sometimes brings with it a high signal to noise rate. It’s a pr=
ice we
pay. Fortunately, as a group of English teachers, we’ve practic=
ed a
strong support for free speech. As Paul suggests, the best way to red=
uce
noise is to ignore it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Herb <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Paul
E. Doniger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-08-21 10:39<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 A=
ug
2009 (#2009-179)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'>Scott,
et al,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'>I have
suggested this before, but here it goes again: If we all decided=
not
to respond to incivility, to empty arguments, or to undesired
commentaries, the level of noise would be greatly reduced. Silence ca=
n be
a powerful persuader to make others be silent!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'>Paul
D.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'>P.S. To
the gentleman who asked to be removed from the list: Since no list member h=
as
the power to remove you, you need to follow the instructions at the bottom =
of
every posting: "To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at: <a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and
select 'Join or leave the list'."<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Bookman Ol=
d Style","serif"'>"If
this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:
"Bookman Old Style","serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"=
'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Scott <[log in to unmask]><br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 21, 2009 3:32:38 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 A=
ug
2009 (#2009-179)<br>
</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'><br>
I most agree with Rick Henry that the signal to noise ratio is becoming<br>
somewhat unbearable. Those who like argument for argument's sake shou=
ld<br>
consider a list such as Grammar Police: they love arguing for the sake of<b=
r>
arguing.<br>
<br>
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD<br>
Professor Emeritus<br>
history & languages<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
U</a>]
On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system<br>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:00 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)<br>
<br>
There are 7 messages totalling 3930 lines in this issue.<br>
<br>
Topics of the day:<br>
<br>
1. Still Doing It Right (5)<br>
2. Howdy, Y'all<br>
3. Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 (#2009-1=
78)<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#666666'><br>
<br>
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)=
and
may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized revie=
w,
use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies =
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C0809F625EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:54:40 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Bob Yates remarks about the NHS
Edmond,
A number of news outlets here (maybe sans Fox, I don't know one way or =
another) did manage to mention eventually that Hawking himself was =
annoyed about the NHS claim, and had taken pains to refute it (I saw =
some discussion on linguist sites that some viewers might not have =
realized that Hawking is British, since his vocal synthesizer doesn't =
replicate any known accent, British or otherwise). Bob will doubtless =
speak for himself, but I took his comment as being ironic, and presented =
fully in the knowledge that the claim was false. =20
Of course, the fact that Britain doesn't have death panels won't stop =
anyone from claiming you do. You folks invented Marmite, for heaven's =
sake, and you have a disturbing habit of using a comma on only one end =
of a restrictive relative clause, not to mention preempting half of our =
comedy programs by fiendishly releasing better versions before ours =
appear.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Edmond =
Wright
Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 7:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bob Yates remarks about the NHS
=20
> Colleagues,
I don't know whether I am the only British contributor, but I feel I =
have to
respond to Bob Yates's comment about our National Health Service. I =
hope
you will excuse me making such a response in this milieu but I would =
like to
show Bob, as a pro-Obama citizen, that things are not as bad as Fox News =
may
have led him to fear.
These opponents of a health service have probably got their gothic =
accounts
of a 'death panel' from the existence of the committee which judges on
whether the latest drugs can be made available to all hospitals. It is
obvious that some new, specialized, and hideously expensive drug cannot =
be
immediately made freely available to all hospitals because that would =
mean
that money for other patients would be unfairly restricted. Over here =
we
are prepared to recognize that, under a free service which ministers to =
all
as British citizens irrespective of their economic status, a measure of
justice must prevail. To describe this committee as a 'death panel' is =
a
gross insult, one which ignores the underlying patriotic fairness of its
purpose. Remember that we do not have 46 million people without =
insurance!
No one is going to become bankrupt -- or even die -- here because they =
have
a chronic disease and have exhausted their private insurance. Yes, it =
may
be true that over here some one does die six months earlier than they =
might
have done had they had the hideously expensive drug, but a hundred other
patients would have suffered as a result. There is a moral issue here, =
a
real problem, that this Foxy propaganda is encouraging you to ignore.
As Bob suggests, it seems a great deal of mischievous misinformation is
being peddled over there about our NHS in an endeavour to frighten =
voters
off. I have had on a number of occasions to call upon the help of our
health service, and all of them have been prompt, excellent, and, of =
course,
utterly free, both at the level of visits to the local doctor and to the
Addenbrooke's Hospital at Cambridge (which has an international =
reputation
-- and is now hugely expanding its cancer research facility). I had a =
touch
of food poisoning lately (having kept something in the freezer too =
long!)
and was treated (with rapid results) within an hour when I turned up
unannounced at the hospital's Accident and Emergency department. Ten =
years
ago, my wife was treated at this hospital for her terminal cancer, and
received close and concerned attention throughout. Since then, I have =
been
supporting the Oncology department and the Palliative Care department -- =
I
include the latter because the people in that department gave her =
unstinting
care and sympathy. Charitable assistance is still given to this =
national
institution! I am off to a lecture, banquet and entertainment evening =
next
month arranged for supporters of the hospital -- Sir David Frost is the
speaker.
Yours,
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
Colleagues,
>=20
> I wish it were true that being silent would lead to less incivility, =
but I
> don't think so.
>=20
> I don't think Barney Frank should have been silent when he was asked =
by
> someone holding a picture of Obama looking like Hitler why he was =
supporting a
> Nazi-type health care plan. There is no "civil answer," especially for =
Fox
> News to that question. I think Barney Frank was perfectly civil to =
ask that
> person what planet she spends most of her time on.
>=20
> You cannot remain silent when people claim the House bill has Death =
Panels
> (like the ones in the UK that would have meant Stephen Hawking would =
not have
> lived to adulthood).
>=20
> Although you don't want to get into a shouting match with people who =
are
> carrying guns at a demonstration (and you probably shouldn't), you =
don't have
> to be silent and let them think this is proper behavior in a =
democracy.
>=20
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 8/21/2009 10:17 AM >>>
> As we're seeing currently in the health care debate, free speech =
sometimes
> brings with it a high signal to noise rate. It's a price we pay.
> Fortunately, as a group of English teachers, we've practiced a strong =
support
> for free speech. As Paul suggests, the best way to reduce noise is to =
ignore
> it.
>=20
> Herb
>=20
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: 2009-08-21 10:39
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug =
2009
> (#2009-179)
>=20
> Scott, et al,
>=20
> I have suggested this before, but here it goes again: If we all =
decided not
> to respond to incivility, to empty arguments, or to undesired =
commentaries,
> the level of noise would be greatly reduced. Silence can be a =
powerful
> persuader to make others be silent!
>=20
> Paul D.
>=20
> P.S. To the gentleman who asked to be removed from the list: Since no =
list
> member has the power to remove you, you need to follow the =
instructions at the
> bottom of every posting: "To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit
> the list's web interface at: =
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select 'Join or leave the list'."
>=20
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an =
improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:32:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug =
2009
> (#2009-179)
>=20
> I most agree with Rick Henry that the signal to noise ratio is =
becoming
> somewhat unbearable. Those who like argument for argument's sake =
should
> consider a list such as Grammar Police: they love arguing for the sake =
of
> arguing.
>=20
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
> history & languages
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On =
Behalf
> Of ATEG automatic digest system
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)
>=20
> There are 7 messages totalling 3930 lines in this issue.
>=20
> Topics of the day:
>=20
> 1. Still Doing It Right (5)
> 2. Howdy, Y'all
> 3. Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 =
(#2009-178)
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave the
> list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:33:02 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Bob Yates remarks about the NHS
The voice that many people identify with Stephen Hawking is one of the nine=
standard voices programmed into Digital Equipment Corporation's DECTalk, a=
very effective text-to-speech device that hit the market in 1984. Hawking=
's voice was for a time the default DECTalk voice called Perfect Paul, a so=
rt of neutral newsreaders voice from the sunset side of the Atlantic. The =
voice was based, or so I've been told, on the voice of Dennis Klatt, who de=
veloped the speech generation code that was used in the device. =20
I worked extensively with DECTalk in the latter half of the 80s in a projec=
t to develop language teaching software that made use of digitally generate=
d speech.
Remko Scha has an excellent history of speech synthesis at http://cf.hum.uv=
a.nl/computerlinguistiek/scha/IAAA/rs/virtual.html.=20
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: 2009-08-22 17:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bob Yates remarks about the NHS
Edmond,
A number of news outlets here (maybe sans Fox, I don't know one way or anot=
her) did manage to mention eventually that Hawking himself was annoyed abou=
t the NHS claim, and had taken pains to refute it (I saw some discussion on=
linguist sites that some viewers might not have realized that Hawking is B=
ritish, since his vocal synthesizer doesn't replicate any known accent, Bri=
tish or otherwise). Bob will doubtless speak for himself, but I took his co=
mment as being ironic, and presented fully in the knowledge that the claim =
was false. =20
Of course, the fact that Britain doesn't have death panels won't stop anyon=
e from claiming you do. You folks invented Marmite, for heaven's sake, and =
you have a disturbing habit of using a comma on only one end of a restricti=
ve relative clause, not to mention preempting half of our comedy programs b=
y fiendishly releasing better versions before ours appear.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Edmond Wrig=
ht
Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 7:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bob Yates remarks about the NHS
=20
> Colleagues,
I don't know whether I am the only British contributor, but I feel I have t=
o
respond to Bob Yates's comment about our National Health Service. I hope
you will excuse me making such a response in this milieu but I would like t=
o
show Bob, as a pro-Obama citizen, that things are not as bad as Fox News ma=
y
have led him to fear.
These opponents of a health service have probably got their gothic accounts
of a 'death panel' from the existence of the committee which judges on
whether the latest drugs can be made available to all hospitals. It is
obvious that some new, specialized, and hideously expensive drug cannot be
immediately made freely available to all hospitals because that would mean
that money for other patients would be unfairly restricted. Over here we
are prepared to recognize that, under a free service which ministers to all
as British citizens irrespective of their economic status, a measure of
justice must prevail. To describe this committee as a 'death panel' is a
gross insult, one which ignores the underlying patriotic fairness of its
purpose. Remember that we do not have 46 million people without insurance!
No one is going to become bankrupt -- or even die -- here because they have
a chronic disease and have exhausted their private insurance. Yes, it may
be true that over here some one does die six months earlier than they might
have done had they had the hideously expensive drug, but a hundred other
patients would have suffered as a result. There is a moral issue here, a
real problem, that this Foxy propaganda is encouraging you to ignore.
As Bob suggests, it seems a great deal of mischievous misinformation is
being peddled over there about our NHS in an endeavour to frighten voters
off. I have had on a number of occasions to call upon the help of our
health service, and all of them have been prompt, excellent, and, of course=
,
utterly free, both at the level of visits to the local doctor and to the
Addenbrooke's Hospital at Cambridge (which has an international reputation
-- and is now hugely expanding its cancer research facility). I had a touc=
h
of food poisoning lately (having kept something in the freezer too long!)
and was treated (with rapid results) within an hour when I turned up
unannounced at the hospital's Accident and Emergency department. Ten years
ago, my wife was treated at this hospital for her terminal cancer, and
received close and concerned attention throughout. Since then, I have been
supporting the Oncology department and the Palliative Care department -- I
include the latter because the people in that department gave her unstintin=
g
care and sympathy. Charitable assistance is still given to this national
institution! I am off to a lecture, banquet and entertainment evening next
month arranged for supporters of the hospital -- Sir David Frost is the
speaker.
Yours,
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
Colleagues,
>=20
> I wish it were true that being silent would lead to less incivility, but =
I
> don't think so.
>=20
> I don't think Barney Frank should have been silent when he was asked by
> someone holding a picture of Obama looking like Hitler why he was support=
ing a
> Nazi-type health care plan. There is no "civil answer," especially for Fo=
x
> News to that question. I think Barney Frank was perfectly civil to ask t=
hat
> person what planet she spends most of her time on.
>=20
> You cannot remain silent when people claim the House bill has Death Panel=
s
> (like the ones in the UK that would have meant Stephen Hawking would not =
have
> lived to adulthood).
>=20
> Although you don't want to get into a shouting match with people who are
> carrying guns at a demonstration (and you probably shouldn't), you don't =
have
> to be silent and let them think this is proper behavior in a democracy.
>=20
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 8/21/2009 10:17 AM >>>
> As we're seeing currently in the health care debate, free speech sometime=
s
> brings with it a high signal to noise rate. It's a price we pay.
> Fortunately, as a group of English teachers, we've practiced a strong sup=
port
> for free speech. As Paul suggests, the best way to reduce noise is to ig=
nore
> it.
>=20
> Herb
>=20
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: 2009-08-21 10:39
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 20=
09
> (#2009-179)
>=20
> Scott, et al,
>=20
> I have suggested this before, but here it goes again: If we all decided =
not
> to respond to incivility, to empty arguments, or to undesired commentarie=
s,
> the level of noise would be greatly reduced. Silence can be a powerful
> persuader to make others be silent!
>=20
> Paul D.
>=20
> P.S. To the gentleman who asked to be removed from the list: Since no lis=
t
> member has the power to remove you, you need to follow the instructions a=
t the
> bottom of every posting: "To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please vis=
it
> the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=
ml
> and select 'Join or leave the list'."
>=20
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbabl=
e
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:32:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Signal to noise ratio ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 20=
09
> (#2009-179)
>=20
> I most agree with Rick Henry that the signal to noise ratio is becoming
> somewhat unbearable. Those who like argument for argument's sake should
> consider a list such as Grammar Police: they love arguing for the sake of
> arguing.
>=20
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
> history & languages
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Beh=
alf
> Of ATEG automatic digest system
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)
>=20
> There are 7 messages totalling 3930 lines in this issue.
>=20
> Topics of the day:
>=20
> 1. Still Doing It Right (5)
> 2. Howdy, Y'all
> 3. Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 (#2009-178)
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave t=
he
> list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
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>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at:
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>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 21 Aug 2009 to 22 Aug 2009 (#2009-182)
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