Johanna,
    It's nice to have an idea so well echoed.  For those of us not aware 
of the Mick Short book, is it recent?  Easily available?  Who's the 
publisher?  
    Many of my grammar students are now handing in grammatical analysis 
papers as one option for their final, and it's neat to see how much can 
happen with even a single semester's preparation. Their options are 
Robert Frost's "Acquainted With the Night" or the first two paragraphs 
of James Baldwin's essay on "The Creative Process." When done well, a 
close look at how it means brings us deeply into the heart of what it 
means, since the meaning is certainly built in and through the grammar.
     If Bill wants to copy  posts to another list, he has my permission. 
 If these people are genuinely interested in deepening their 
understanding of the subject and not simply trying  to wish it away, 
perhaps we can set up a conversation.

Craig

Johanna Rubba wrote:

> Those who criticize ATEG for its claims need to define what they mean 
> by  'grammar', as a few posters have pointed out. I think these 
> critics have in mind the traditional-grammar curriculum, with its 
> focus on teaching rules out of context and terminology for its own sake.
>
> Anyone who does not understand the value of knowing 
> grammar/linguistics to understanding style and literature should read 
> an interesting book by Mick Short titled "Exploring the Language of 
> Poems, Plays, and Prose". There is a very nice chapter on point of 
> view, for example. Point of view is set up by very specific linguistic 
> choices. I'd like to see anyone explain e. e. cummings' poem "anybody 
> lived in a pretty how town" without talking about parts of speech and 
> complementation possiblities. You can only get so far with lay 
> language such as "this word doesn't go with that one because it 
> doesn't make sense". Pretending grammar isn't important also means 
> impoverishing the understanding of how breaking grammatical rules is 
> used to such great effect in many genres of writing, esp. poetry.
>
> Broadly enough defined, as Craig Hancock has said, understanding 
> grammar means understanding how language communicates one thought 
> rather than another. How the words are arranged with respect to each 
> other is essential to conveying meaning.
>
> Bill, how about posting our replies to your other list???
>
> Johanna
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanna Rubba   Associate Professor, Linguistics
> English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> One Grand Avenue  • San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> Tel. (805)-756-2184  •  Fax: (805)-756-6374 • Dept. Phone.  756-2596
> • E-mail: [log in to unmask] •      Home page: 
> http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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