TJ,

Two points to add to Craig and Bruce:

1. The notion that English has only two primary tenses is extremely 
widespread in linguistically based grammars. I won't say that it's 
universal, but it's certainly the standard position. Many books give 
details of the logic behind the claim. The Cambridge Grammar of the 
English Language gives a good summary.

2. I also didn't see an answer to your question about "finished": you're 
right to see it as a past participle when it follows an auxiliary HAVE.

Regards,

Karl

On 1/5/2011 5:39 PM, T. J. Ray wrote:
> Bruce,
> Two comments: If we are going to insist on there being only two tenses,
> do we then say that in the sentence "Joe will go home" the verb is in
> the present tense while inthe sentence "Joe would go home if he could"
> the verb is in the past tense?
>
> Second, how does one deal with verbs that were irregular in Old English
> that have changed since then and may be found in two shapes?
> Joe has forgot the combination.
> Joe has forgotten the combination.
> I'm having trouble understanding why it is not possible to take "finished"
> as a past participle when it follows has, had, or will have.
> tj
>
>
> On Wednesday 01/05/2011 at 6:24 pm, Bruce Despain wrote:
>> Bill,
>> Ooops! I see you wanted a theory neutral term. I don't think this is
>> possible. Giving it a code name of any sort suggests a system has been
>> used for assigning the codes.
>>
>> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>>
>> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Suggestion of Distinct Name for Past Perfect Tense
>> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:14:48 -0800
>>
>> My own suggestion is that there are only two tenses in English:
>> Present and Past. Tense only appears on the first element of the verb
>> phrase. This is a true inflection of that verb and generally sets the
>> time of the situation denoted. The other verb phrases that are often
>> called tenses are actually better thought of as aspect (progressive,
>> perfect), mood (indicative, subjunctive), voice (active, passive) and
>> are mediated by the use of helping verbs in combination with
>> infinitives and participles (imperfect, perfect). The syntax is rather
>> firm with an established order of verbs to indicate the various
>> combinations of features.
>> I say rather firm because there are certain modals that can mimic
>> these forms, as: "I had rather go fishing" and "I had better keep
>> quiet." These comparative forms of adjectives have squirreled
>> themselves into the mix. In this case it seems the adjective splits
>> the perfect aspect so that instead of a perfect participle following
>> the "had" the bare infinitive is right at home. (Only the past tense
>> of "have" is possible here, presumably because it has been backshifted
>> to express an irrealis mood.)
>> Bruce
>>
>> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>>
>> From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Suggestion of Distinct Name for Past Perfect Tense
>> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 17:24:01 -0600
>>
>> Bill,
>> Help to understand how "finished" in the construction the
>> clause "Joe had finished his work by quitting time" is a past
>> form of the verb. Why isn't it simply the past participle? It
>> may be confusing when a regular verb appears in such a sequence, but
>> the distinction of forms is clearly there with
>> irregular verbs: "Joe had seen the outcome of the experiment before he
>> left the lab."
>> tj
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/