Actually, Craig, I wouldn't call the when-clause after 'know' a direct
object either. I'm arguing that the similarity in linear order of  V +
NP and  V + Clause is not enough to justify calling that clause a direct
object. I don't have a new name for such clauses, and am not sure that
one is needed. Just call it a complement.

BTW, I should also say that the point at issue might be clearer if we
look at ordinary content clauses (e.g., in "He said that he was
finished"), which are also analyzed traditionally (and incorrectly in my
view) as direct objects. With relative clauses we have additional
complexities like fused constructions that aren't necessarily relevant here.

There is reason for thinking that the structures are parallel. Notice
that you can coordinate if (which has an unambiguous content clause) and
when:

  I wonder when or if the notice will arrive.
 Do you know when or if the notice will arrive?

In other words, when and if coordinate with the same clause, "the notice
will arrive."

Karl

Karl Hagen
Department of English
Mount St. Mary's College

Craig Hancock wrote:

> Karl,
>    I don't think I would agree, but I wanted to make sure I'm getting
> the argument right.  If the sentence were /I know when the notice will
> arrive/, it's OK to think of /know /as transitive and /when the notice
> will arrive/ as direct object because it's somewhat cognate to a noun
> phrase in the same slot, such as /I know the arrival time/.  Because
> we can't say "I wonder the arrival time," we are clearly dealing with
> at least a slightly different beast. What I think you're saying is
> that the differences are great enough to think of one as transitive,
> the other as intransitive.
>     If /when the notice will arrive/ is not a direct object in /I
> wonder when the notice will arrive/, but clearly a complement, what
> name or category would you grant it?  Are you suggesting a new
> category for traditional grammar?
>     What /know/ and /wonder/ have in common is that both are mental
> process verbs, and mental process verbs often take whole clauses as
> complements. (/decide, consider, understand,/ /appreciate/, and so
> on.)  Would it make sense to think of those as a sub category of
> direct object? Is direct object ultimately too clumsy to be of use as
> a single category? Could /wonder/ take a direct object as cognate to
> these mental process complements (and not to noun phrases?)
>
> Craig
>
> Karl Hagen wrote:
>
>> Christine,
>>
>> If your book calls /wonder/ a transitive verb, then it's analyzing the
>> when-clause as a direct object.
>> That's a traditional assumption, but I think it's wrong.
>>
>> Calling the subordinate clause a NP-substitute is a bit problematic,
>> since /wonder/, like many other verbs, doesn't actually take a NP
>> complement.
>>
>> Some verbs (e.g., /said/) can take either a direct object or a clause as
>> a complement, and that's the reason for the analysis that your book
>> uses, but clauses that are internal complements of verbs actually don't
>> behave all that much like NPs, so I think it's better to consider
>> /wonder/ intransitive.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Karl
>>
>> Karl Hagen
>> Department of English
>> Mount St. Mary's College
>>
>> Christine Gray wrote:
>>
>>> We are working on identifying phrases in my grammar class.
>>>
>>> This sentence is from an exercise in the textbook:
>>>
>>> "I wonder when the notice will arrive."
>>>
>>> The instructor's manual, with the answers, identifies the
>>> constituents of
>>> this sentence as
>>>
>>> Noun phrase             verb phrase             noun phrase
>>>        I               wonder  when the notice will arrive
>>>
>>> I've always thought of "wonder" as an intransitive verb.
>>>
>>> My questions:
>>> 1. Is wonder a transitive verb?
>>> 2. What kind of phrase is "when the notice will arrive."
>>>
>>> (I know it's actually a clause. But for the purpose of this
>>> exercise, we are
>>> identifying it as a type of phrase.)
>>>
>>> Christine in Baltimore
>>>
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