The point I was trying to make is that "after," "finished" (the nature
of finishing), and perfect aspect work together to establish time
relations. We can make other choices that would make perfect aspect
less redundant: "When I had read the book, I returned it to the
library." "Read" and "when" are more time neutral, so it is easier to
see the contribution that perfect aspect is making to the sentence.
    "When my wife came home, she received a big surprise. I cleaned/had
cleaned the house." You can infer it from the first, but I would use
the second to make it clear that the cleaning occurred before her
arrival.

Craig



What does this sentence mean: After I had finished the book, I returned it
> to
> the library?
>  
> What does this sentence mean: After I finished the book, I returned it to
> the
> library?
>  
> Trying to understand.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 10:35:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Structure of perfect aspect
>
> TJ,
>     There is a slightly different dynamic between past and present
> (cognitively), so the answer may be yes and no. There are choices in
> the system. I can choose past or present, but not both. I can choose
> perfect or progressive or neither or both. I can choose active or
> passive. (Active would be default.) The dynamics shift a bit because
> of the different ways we construe present and past time. We also have
> time reference conjunctions and adverbials that influence the meaning,
> so sometimes perfect aspect can seem like an option (as in "After I
> had finished the book, I returned it to the library). If we think of
> this in functional terms, we have different ways to keep clear these
> time relations.
>     I don't think there is a future tense. We can use present tense to
> refer to something that hasn't happened yet. "My plane leaves in an
> hour." We can also make present time (time of the utterance) judgments
> about the likelihood or desirability of something that hasn't happened
> yet, using the modal adjuncts. "My plane will leave. My plane might
> leave. My plane can't leave. My plane shouldn't leave." I like to
> think of "will" as an expression of certainty. It's a judgment. The
> modals function mainly by adding these kinds of judgments.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>> While I'm not sure what your last paragraph means, may I say
>> that your explanation of a present perfect progressive passive
>> is as cogent as has been presented.  Good for you.
>>
>> May the same explanation not be extended (with a tense difference)
>> to past and future perfect progressive passives?
>>
>> tj
>>
>> On Saturday 01/08/2011 at 9:06 am, Craig Hancock  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        One problem with listing and classifying a number of forms
>>>> (like
>>> present perfect progressive passive) is that the list becomes
>>> extremely daunting to anyone trying to get a grasp of it. Another is
>>> the faulty (I think) assumption that this is a single "tense" rather
>>> than a combination of meanings (form and meaning pairings). In other
>>> words, it's hard to grasp as a single concept what the "present
>>> perfect progressive passive" is doing, much easier to realize that it
>>> is construed as happening at the point of utterance (present) started
>>> earlier (perfect) but ongoing (progressive) and happening TO the
>>> subject. "I have been being helped." In context, it might happen like
>>> this. "Have you been helped"? "I have been being helped for some time
>>> now."
>>>      This is another argument for tense and aspect and voice as
>>> separate
>>> systems that work together within the verb phrase.
>>>      In English, we need a new term to add another function. If
>>> "present
>>> perfect progressive passive" was a single "tense" you might expect
>>> them
>>> to conflate into a single term over time, but that hasn't happened.
>>>
>>> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
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