Bruce,
I think the gerund and participle -ing have the same pronunciation. Are you perhaps referring to the suggestion that the -in' and -ing forms derive historically from the participle in -nd and the gerund in -ing respectively? It's a widely accepted view that the two have merged into one ending the varies along socio-linguistic parameters and is used for both.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Beth Young
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 12:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Take me fishing - Make me smile - Reed-Kellogg diagrams
Bruce,
Your comments are really interesting, though now my tongue is sore from experimenting with velar and palatal "ng," and I'm not sure I can hear the difference (at least in my own speech). Do you mean that the gerund uses /ɲ/ while the participle uses /ŋ/? Or that one pronounces a /g/ and the other doesn't (/ɲg/ or /ŋg/)?
(Hoping those IPA characters come through ok.)
Beth
>>> Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> 01/05/11 12:11 PM >>>
Steve,
This is my understanding:
1) Make me smile.
R&K place "x" for "to" (like a preposition) and "smile" the rest of the simple infinitive on stilts. The stilts project upward from the object complement line, so that "me" is still the direct object.
2) Take me fishing.
R&K would analyze this also as an object complement. In this case the gerund has a stepped line, but being horizontal is likewise placed on stilts. (I believe the gerund tends to have the palatal "ng" whereas the imperfect participle prefers the velar "ng.")
The idea of paraphrasing these sentences as clauses has to do with their semantic force, which is useful for sentence combining, but is counterproductive to much of traditional grammar.
I have a question about the gerund vs. the noun in -ing, both derived from a verb. Traditional grammar does not seem to distinguish the two.
1a) His fishing upstream from me was disturbing.
1b) I didn't like his fishing upstream from me.
2a) ?Him fishing upstream from me was disturbing.
2b) I didn't like him fishing upstream from me.
In object position the tendency is to analyze the gerund as object complement. Maybe this is why traditional grammar frowns on (2a).
However, I wonder if perhaps these two are actually distinct. One might consider the noun form in (1), the one taking a possessive subject, as not a gerund for that very reason. However, here we may be deceived.
When we look at the pronunciation of the -ing form in (2b), it comes clear that it is velar, hence, it is actually the imperfect participle as object complement.
Bruce
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
From: "Benton, Steve" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Take me fishing - Make me smile - Reed-Kellogg diagrams
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 05:42:24 -0600
I find it hard to resist sentence diagramming (Reed Kellogg-style) when I am teaching grammar and wish I were more aware of its flaws. The most obvious one is that it requires memorization of a number of symbols (lines, dotted lines, "platforms," diagonal lines, etc.) in addition to the memorization of the categories they represent. I do not doubt that when it comes to describing the complexity of the language, RK sentence diagrams may occasionally prove to be crude instruments (are there any
other kind, though?). With that in mind, I wonder if the following
two cases are representative of the flaws of sentence diagramming:
1) Make me smile.
2) Take me fishing.
It seems to me that in example number one, "me smile" could be a nominative clause that functions as a direct object. If I were diagramming it, I would put "me" on a diagonal line in the subject position (which seems counterintuitive since me is objective case) and put the entire clause on a platform in the object position. Is that what RK would do with this sentence? What would Reed Kellogg do with the Star Trek command: "Make it so"?
Im not sure what RK would do with example number two.
Thoughts?
Steve Benton
Assistant Professor
Department of English and Languages
East Central University
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