Actually there is a potential classroom use for some of these discussions. I haven't tried this with an ATEG thread, but a few years ago when alt.usage.English was still discussing points of grammar and lexicography instead of flame-baiting, I would have UG grammar students follow threads and develop questions or responses that they would first review with me and then submit to the newsgroup. This led to some interesting interactions, one of which included a flame attack on me from other group participants for making their discussion grist for classroom discussion. But the students enjoyed the work and, at least from their comments, found it worthwhile. The purpose of the exercise was to have the students observe and engage in discussion with people who work with English professionally and have a strong commitment to the study of the language. Maybe I'll try it out with ATEG, FunkNet, or ADS threads.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Fri 1/2/2004 7:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc:
Subject: Re: Thank you for responses to "Clause question"
Ed,
With all due respect, I have to say that I don't see how you reached the
following conclusion: "It is no wonder that people such as Theresa's student
find grammar to be stupid." The discussions (yes, sometimes seemingly
endless) on this list do not mirror what is taught in classrooms in public
school, or schools of any kind. They are discussions among linguists,
grammarians, college professors, English/Language Arts teachers, elementary
school teachers, and others who might be interested in the subject. I doubt
that any of us who teach would attempt to do in classes what is done on this
list. These are not the lessons shared with our students or their parents.
That does not necessarily mean that ATEG is a useless discussion group. Even
one small idea from a full 19 pages of discussion could become a teachable
moment in someone's class. It seems to me that I have gotten an idea or two
from these discussions that I could, in some small measure, adapt for
classroom use, but I have NEVER tried to transpose the whole gamut of one of
these discussions into a lesson plan! That would be "stupid," to use
Teresa's poor student's adjective.
I guess that what I am saying is that while much of the discussion,
disagreement, haranguing, etc., that goes on on this list does not apply to
classroom teaching, this group still remains quite helpful to me in my work
as a high school English teacher.
The problem with the KISS method (and with the whole of Language Arts
curricula in general), as far as I can tell, is that unless it is
coordinated from a top down authority in a K-12 system, it is not very
coherent. My high school, being independent of any district curriculum
mandates, would not be able to begin to use it; consequently, we are stuck
playing catch-up with what was missed in the elementary and middle schools
we draw our population from. I suspect that this situation represents the
norm in many school systems.
Paul E. Doniger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Vavra" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Thank you for responses to "Clause question"
I think it was Bruce who wondered if, whenever I ask a question on this
list, it is a trick. The answer to that is no, but my real purpose is to
reconfirm my belief that this group is not very helpful. I'm trying to catch
up on the mail, so I copied and pasted the responses to my question into an
html document. It's printing right now ― 19 pages worth. That is, more or
less, what I expected, but then I read Teresa's question about the student
who claims that grammar is "stupid."
At the risk of being thrown off this list, did anyone consider whom I
had in mind when I named my approach to grammar "KISS"? What is a
non-grammarian going to do with 19 pages of discussion of one relatively
simple sentence? And don't forget that many of the responses are based on
linguistic theories that are totally Greek to most parents and teachers.
They would have to take at least one, if not more courses in that type of
grammar before they could really begin to understand what some of the
responders had to say.
What I continue to find on this list is endless discussions of
definitions and the explanations of specific, single sentences. It is no
wonder that people such as Theresa's student find grammar to be stupid. The
KISS Approach is probably not the best answer to the fundamental problem,
but at least it addresses what K-college teachers (and parents) want to
know, including the integration of grammar with writing, reading, and
literature. See:
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/New.htm
Thanks for the responses,
Ed
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