Shun,
I overlooked the fact that you have a forum where this discussion might more appropriately take place, rather than on this list.
I tried not to miss your point. It is well taken. Wood's rule is indeed not enough. I tried to explain the difference by appealing to the definite reference of the past time expression and the present relevance necessity when the past time reference is indefinite. This would presumably not discount a definite or indefinite past time expression with the simple past, just its present relevance being necessary. The earthquake you mentioned certainly has present relevance, but the past time expression is definite, so the relevance is not necessary.
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/01/01 07:32PM >>>
Hello Bruce,
I think you have missed my point. My examples show that we still use Present
Perfect even we have past time adverbials mentioned.
You wrote:
> All of the rest of your examples have definite reference to a period of
time,
> yet the predicate has present relevance, i.e., we can easily add some such
> phrase as "and this is still true".
>
My reply: Even if I say "He has worked for that company in the past", the
statement is also true by now. More precisely, "Yesterday there was an
earthquake in XX, and this is still true".
>>>My counter reply: "He has worked for that company in the past" means not that the statement has present relevance, just the verb phrase "has worked for that company" Presumably he does NOT work for the company in the present. "Yesterday there was an earthquake in XX, but the earth is NOT still quaking." "There has been an earthquake in XX in the past" Without the context of the first sentence means simply that the time of the event is not known, but there is probably some evidence in the present. In the context of the definite statement we would think presumably that the one yesterday was not the first. Maybe we are trying to capture too much with the phrase "present relevance."
Shun, are you trying to find a rule that describes the syntax, or are you trying to point out that there is no rule possible? Bruce<<<
Shun
englishtense.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Despain" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: INVITATION TO DISCUSS
It seems that Wood in saying "past time" left out some important components
Sometimes it is said that there must be some present relevance. The first
example allows this interpretation in two senses: He has worked in
[non-idomatic, should be "for" since a "company" is conceived of as a
corporate body, rather than a group of individuals] that company IN THE
PAST. This may mean that he still works for the company, or more likely,
there was some period of time in the past when he worked [simple past] for
the company and he no longer works there. The adverb "in the past" is
indefinite. If it were "in June" or "in 1985", etc., the simple past tense
would be used, provided there is no present relevance. This is what Wood
also left out; this distinction between definite and indefinite reference to
past time. All of the rest of your examples have definite reference to a
period of time, yet the predicate has present relevance, i.e., we can easily
add some such phrase as "and this is still true".
We may say "I have seen him. It was yesterday." This is one way to connect
the adverb with definite reference to time. "It" refers to the time of the
occurrence, but does not interfere with the present relevance of the first
sentence, which may have been uttered in response to "Has anyone seen Joe?"
(I'm looking for him.) "I saw him yesterday." could also be a correct
response, but implies that I am not intending it to give you much of an
answer as it is not really relevant to the present moment.
I hope this will help you with finding ("righteous") or at least more useful
rules.
Bruce D. Despain
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/01/01 03:32AM >>>
Subject: Why "I have seen him yesterday" is wrong?
Dear Sir/Madam,
What is the mistake in the sentence: "I have seen him yesterday"?
We have always been accepting the simplified answer: Because there is a past
time adverb said in the sentence, we have to use the Simple Past: "I saw him
yesterday".
For a concrete source, Current English Usage, by F.T.Wood, is noted for its
aim at correcting students' errors in English usage. In explaining the
Present Perfect, the book emphasizes a helping rule: "IT [the Present
Perfect tense] MUST NOT BE ACCOMPANIED BY ANY ADVERB OR ADVERBIAL EXPRESSION
WHICH DENOTES PAST TIME. We cannot say 'I have seen him last Wednesday'."
(Here the grammar itself chose to use capital letters to emphasize the
formula.) In fact, this is the most reliable guidance in the usage of
English tense. Scarcely will a grammar book do without it.
Because of this thumb rule, however, all grammar books have to avoid to talk
about the past time adverbs for the Present Perfect tense, such as: in the
past, in the past year, during past year, in the past xxx years, over the
past xxx weeks, during the past few days, for the past two months, etc. And
yet, their examples are frequently found in all kinds of readings and very
probably you may have to use frequently too:
Ex: He has worked in that company IN THE PAST.
Ex: Frequency graph shows how often each number has hit IN THE PAST YEAR.
Ex: There have been great improvements in school teaching IN THE PAST TEN
YEARS.
Ex: As a result, the number of multiple births in the U.S. has more than
quadrupled DURING THE PAST QUARTER-CENTURY.
Ex: At least IN THE PAST FEW YEARS exitways from central Paris have been
greatly improved.
Ex: This function has greatly increased in importance OVER THE PAST HUNDRED
YEARS.
Unknown to ordinary students and teachers, this is the most tricky problem
lurked in present-day explanation of English tenses. If our grammars still
keep avoiding this problem, there will be no righteous rules about tenses at
all.
What is your opinion? How to explain the Present Perfect tense staying with
past time adverbs?
Your help is appreciated.
Shun Tang
www.englishtense.com
======================
P.S. If you could provide any help or opinion, please go and visit the
following forum:
http://www.englishtense.com/forum.asp
and locate the recent thread titled: Why "I have seen him yesterday" is
wrong?
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