Bob,
I have no desire to debate you because I agree. Science does raise philosophical questions. That was never something I argued against (so put away the straw).
Instead, my argument has been that language study is more of an art than a science, and should be classified as such (suck it up and deal*). Other art disciplines include religion, music, literature, psychology, philosophy, etc. I am greatly puzzled as to why several of you on this listserv find this hard to admit. Clearly, the inability of all of you (and me too) to agree on basic definitions is an indication that grammar does not have a "reality" (to quote Bruce) that exists outside human understanding. When a biologist has difficulty classifying an animal, it isn't because a reality doesn't exist outside human nature, it's because she doesn't know. A real answer does exist, and some day a scientist may find the answer, but probably not because biological evidence is ephemeral.
Susan
*Actually, I only say that because I can't resist goading you and you find it so hard to acknowledge. But I don't. I have no problem with the artistic world. I love art, comedy, language use, etc., but if I want facts, I look to science.
On Nov 16, 2010, at 7:24 AM, Robert Yates wrote:
> Susan,
>
> I notice that you had no desire to deal with my observations on why any scientific discipline raises fundamental philosophical questions. So, let's get to cases.
>
> What does it mean to know a language?
>
> How is that knowledge acquired?
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>
>
>
>>>> Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> 11/15/10 5:57 PM >>>
> Hi Bob, do you think philosophy is a science in the same way that physics is a science? You will need a more precise definition of science to follow my argument. But perhaps that is what you don't want to do.
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Robert Yates wrote:
>
>> Susan,
>>
>> I have no idea what your background is, but you need to have a wider definition of philosophy and science. Two crucial questions in philosophy are determining what is knowledge and figuring out how we come to that knowledge. In any scientific discipline, two crucial question are determining the domain of knowledge that discipline is concerned with and what are the appropriate ways of gathering that knowledge.
>>
>> Let's consider language. What does it mean to know a language? Is "knowing" a language a unitary kind of knowledge or does it have, let's say, two aspects: knowing what is possible in the language (let's call that competence) and knowing how to use what is possible in the language (let's call that performance)? That question is both fundamental to how one studies language and a fundamental philosophical question.
>>
>> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>
>>>>> Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> 11/14/2010 9:55 PM >>>
>> I had never heard of Kuhn. So I did a quick search and he, too, is not a scientist when he is writing about what science is. He is a philosopher. When you want to use what he says to counter what science is, he can't do it because he is a philosopher, and a philosopher can't counter a scientific definition. And a good philosopher doesn't try. The definition of science is not a philosophic concern. I don't think either Popper or Kuhn would have agreed to your using their ideas to defend definitions of grammar as being scientific.
>>
>> If Michael Jordan tries to sell you tennis shoes, consider buying what he says is good. But if Michael Jordan tries to tell you what a noun is, don't buy it any more than you would what Popper or Carl Sagan tells you what a noun is.
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
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>>
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>
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