I most agree with Rick Henry that the signal to noise ratio is becoming
somewhat unbearable. Those who like argument for argument's sake should
consider a list such as Grammar Police: they love arguing for the sake of
arguing.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)
There are 7 messages totalling 3930 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Still Doing It Right (5)
2. Howdy, Y'all
3. Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 (#2009-178)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 04:18:35 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
--0-352921695-1250767115=:5560
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to expect from you. What I=
don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest of the 300+ teache=
rs on the list think about the subject at hand, (or any subject), which you=
missed but they may well not have missed. I hear from them from time to ti=
me, off list, but most of them will not put up with what you ladle out, as =
below.
=A0
I wish I could ask them specific questions en masse and=A0get them to reply=
individually, off list, so they can be counted but I haven't yet found a w=
ay to do it. You want to argue but I still want=A0to count heads. The only =
head count I was able to get came out=A060-40, which certainly indicates a =
difference of opinion, but I have=A0not yet found a way to build on it.=A0
=A0
.brad.20aug09.
--- On Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM
Brad,=A0=20
=A0
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments.=A0 I know certain=
speakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger i=
ntends to comply with in his use of "had."=A0 No matter how many times they=
may be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect form in s=
uch a context, they must always prescriptively praise=A0their own dialect a=
s the only correct one.=A0 I understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be c=
ommunicating with this form the same way I would make the attempt.=A0 For m=
any months,=A0this listserve was sustained by over 300 interested English t=
eachers.=A0 Their appetite for=A0a healthy discussion of relevant issues ha=
d made it a good resource of information and pedagogical strategies, which =
you have no doubt also enjoyed.=A0=A0Perhaps the current downturn in reader=
ship can be traced to certain repetitive observations of dialect difference=
s that do not go away, but are maintained as the only correct versions.=A0=
=20
=A0
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by=A0Henry Kissin=
ger, in which=A0there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
=A0
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if n=
o one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough =
for me to show=A0her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who =
is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
=A0
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009=20
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance=
of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods (had sent)=A0sent enormous amounts of dollars t=
o China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more buying.
=A0
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent=A0-- in the =
whole article.=20
=A0
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people=A0do it right.
=A0
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
=A0
.brad.19aug09.=A0
=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--0-352921695-1250767115=:5560
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>You missed the point but that's O.K. I k=
now what to expect from you. What I don't know, and you don't know either, =
is what the rest of the 300+ teachers on the list think about the subject a=
t hand, (or any subject), which you missed but they may well not have misse=
d. I hear from them from time to time, off list, but most of them will not =
put up with what you ladle out, as below.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wish I could ask them specific questions <EM>en masse</EM> and =
get them to reply <EM>individually</EM>, off list, so they can be counted b=
ut I haven't yet found a way to do it. You want to argue but I still want&n=
bsp;to count heads. The only head count I was able to get came out 60-=
40, which certainly indicates a difference of opinion, but I have not =
yet found a way to build on it. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>.brad.20aug09.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain <I><DespainBD@FAMILYSEARC=
H.ORG></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]
G><BR>Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<=
BR>Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1796461258>
<STYLE><!--#yiv1796461258 P {
MARGIN-TOP:0px;MARGIN-BOTTOM:0px;}
--></STYLE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DTahoma>Brad, </FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3Dtahoma></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3Dtahoma>I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply =
to your comments. I know certain speakers of English will not underst=
and the point of view that Kissinger intends to comply with in his use of "=
had." No matter how many times they may be told that there are dialec=
ts that accept the past perfect form in such a context, they must always pr=
escriptively praise their own dialect as the only correct one. I=
understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be communicating with this form =
the same way I would make the attempt. For many months, this lis=
tserve was sustained by over 300 interested English teachers. Their a=
ppetite for a healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good=
resource of information and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doub=
t also enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can b=
e traced to certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that
do not go away, but are maintained as the only correct versions. </F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3Dtahoma></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3Dtahoma>Bruce</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr" id=3DdivRpF516364>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> Assembly for the Teaching of English Gramm=
ar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]
COM]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B> ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> Still Doing It Right<BR></FONT><BR><=
/DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000 size=3D2>There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece=
in today's paper, written by Henry Kissinger, in which there is =
a single 'had' and it is a blooper.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG><FONT size=3D2> </F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000 size=3D2>Nonetheless, it provides furthe=
r evidence to refute Susan's claim that if no one does it right, it must be=
wrong. She did not stay around long enough for me to show her that lo=
ts of people do it right, including Henry, who is, by any standard, a wonde=
rful manipulator of our language.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2>Rebalancing Relations With China<BR>.</FONT></S=
TRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>By <STRONG>Henry A. Kissinger, </STRONG>Wednesday, Augu=
st 19, 2009 <BR>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>For several decades, the global economic system was sus=
tained by acceptance of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity cou=
pled with America's appetite for consumer goods <FONT color=3D#c00000>(</FO=
NT><STRONG>had sent</STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>) <STRONG><U>sent</U=
></STRONG></FONT> enormous amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, Chi=
na lent back to us for still more buying.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000 size=3D2>That's the only 'had' there is =
-- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the whole article. </FONT></STRO=
NG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG><FONT size=3D2> </F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#c00000 size=3D2><STRONG>Some people, sometimes, do it w=
rong. Lots of people</STRONG><STRONG> do it right.</STRONG></FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG><FONT size=3D2> </F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000 size=3D2>It should be taught the right w=
ay, not the wrong way.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG><FONT size=3D2> </F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000 size=3D2>.brad.19aug09. </FONT></ST=
RONG></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></t=
d></tr></table><br>=0A=0A
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-352921695-1250767115=:5560--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:00:22 -0600
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1374A78E19725MBX01ldschurc_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brad, et al.
Sorry I missed the point. Where did I go wrong? I thought the point was t=
hat "had sent" and "sent" underlined were two options and that Dr. Kissinge=
r had chosen the correct option. I also thought Brad wanted to point out t=
hat this author knew what he was doing when he made the choice. (I was als=
o checking to see if my sentence with "had," which was syntactically equiva=
lent, would pass muster.) I cannot for the world understand how numbers ar=
e going help the investigation. Is the investigator looking for an explana=
tion for the phenomenon or is the desire simply to prove that it exists and=
that there is a difference of opinion about its most appropriate analysis,=
which might eventually lead to an explanation? I believe there is ample e=
vidence about the difference of opinion that exists. I don't understand th=
e importance of discovering that a particular individual has a particular o=
pinion about the difference. Does the investigator want to make sure he is=
in the "right" camp? Does he want to make sure a majority agrees with him=
? Does he want to find out if he is on a par with other English teachers? =
Does he need to prove that "most" English teachers have it all wrong? I a=
m at a loss to know how one could build objectively on such detailed inform=
ation to build a satisfying explanation for the phenomenon. I think the gr=
ammatical choice is indeed socially conditioned, but then limiting the inqu=
iry to English teachers does not seem appropriate. The social dynamics of =
language use is, I believe, much too overt and self-conscious in that group=
. Journalists would also seem to be self-conscious with regard to language=
use and yield biased data. It is probably a good thing that it is not eas=
y to query them individually about their grammatical choices. The numbers =
would tell more about the group queried than the grammatical phenomenon for=
which we seek an explanation. (I suppose it can also tell us a lot about =
the investigator.) If the social dynamics of grammatical choice is what is=
being studied, I would think that the investigator would stay aloof and be=
careful not to become part of those dynamics by insisting on one particula=
r choice.
By the way, I agree that teaching might well be improved by using terms mor=
e appropriate to our particular understanding, just as Bill has suggested.
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
You missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to expect from you. What I=
don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest of the 300+ teache=
rs on the list think about the subject at hand, (or any subject), which you=
missed but they may well not have missed. I hear from them from time to ti=
me, off list, but most of them will not put up with what you ladle out, as =
below.
I wish I could ask them specific questions en masse and get them to reply i=
ndividually, off list, so they can be counted but I haven't yet found a way=
to do it. You want to argue but I still want to count heads. The only head=
count I was able to get came out 60-40, which certainly indicates a differ=
ence of opinion, but I have not yet found a way to build on it.
.brad.20aug09.
--- On Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM
Brad,
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know certain s=
peakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger int=
ends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how many times they may=
be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect form in such =
a context, they must always prescriptively praise their own dialect as the =
only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be communica=
ting with this form the same way I would make the attempt. For many months=
, this listserve was sustained by over 300 interested English teachers. Th=
eir appetite for a healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good=
resource of information and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doub=
t also enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be traced t=
o certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that do not go awa=
y, but are maintained as the only correct versions.
Bruce
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry Kissinge=
r, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if n=
o one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough =
for me to show her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who is=
, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance=
of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods (had sent) sent enormous amounts of dollars to =
China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more buying.
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the wh=
ole article.
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
.brad.19aug09.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the =
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al=
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Brad, et al. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sorry I missed the point. Where did I go wrong? I
thought the point was that “had sent” and “sent”
underlined were two options and that Dr. Kissinger had chosen the correct
option. I also thought Brad wanted to point out that this author knew
what he was doing when he made the choice. (I was also checking to se=
e if
my sentence with “had,” which was syntactically equivalent, wou=
ld
pass muster.) I cannot for the world understand how numbers are going=
help
the investigation. Is the investigator looking for an explanation for=
the
phenomenon or is the desire simply to prove that it exists and that there i=
s a
difference of opinion about its most appropriate analysis, which might
eventually lead to an explanation? I believe there is ample evidence
about the difference of opinion that exists. I don’t understand=
the
importance of discovering that a particular individual has a particular opi=
nion
about the difference. Does the investigator want to make sure he is in
the “right” camp? Does he want to make sure a majority ag=
rees
with him? Does he want to find out if he is on a par with other Engli=
sh
teachers? Does he need to prove that “most” English teach=
ers
have it all wrong? I am at a loss to know how one could build objecti=
vely
on such detailed information to build a satisfying explanation for the
phenomenon. I think the grammatical choice is indeed socially
conditioned, but then limiting the inquiry to English teachers does not seem
appropriate. The social dynamics of language use is, I believe, much =
too overt
and self-conscious in that group. Journalists would also seem to be s=
elf-conscious
with regard to language use and yield biased data. It is probably a g=
ood
thing that it is not easy to query them individually about their grammatica=
l choices.
The numbers would tell more about the group queried than the grammati=
cal
phenomenon for which we seek an explanation. (I suppose it can also t=
ell
us a lot about the investigator.) If the social dynamics of grammatic=
al
choice is what is being studied, I would think that the investigator would =
stay
aloof and be careful not to become part of those dynamics by insisting on o=
ne
particular choice. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>By the way, I agree that teaching might well be improved by
using terms more appropriate to our particular understanding, just as Bill =
has
suggested. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Brad
Johnston<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Still Doing It Right<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>You missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to =
expect
from you. What I don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest =
of
the 300+ teachers on the list think about the subject at hand, (or any
subject), which you missed but they may well not have missed. I hear from
them from time to time, off list, but most of them will not put up with w=
hat
you ladle out, as below.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I wish I could ask them specific questions <em>en ma=
sse</em>
and get them to reply <em>individually</em>, off list, so they can be
counted but I haven't yet found a way to do it. You want to argue but I s=
till
want to count heads. The only head count I was able to get came
out 60-40, which certainly indicates a difference of opinion, but I
have not yet found a way to build on it. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>.brad.20aug09.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
--- On <b>Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain <i><[log in to unmask]&g=
t;</i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:=
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]><br>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right<br>
To: [log in to unmask]<br>
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3Dyiv1796461258>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";col=
or:black'>Brad,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I =
don't
know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know certain
speakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger
intends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how
many times they may be told that there are dialects that accept the past
perfect form in such a context, they must always prescriptively
praise their own dialect as the only correct one. I understood
Henry perfectly as he seems to be communicating with this form the same w=
ay I
would make the attempt. For many months, this listserve was
sustained by over 300 interested English teachers. Their appetite
for a healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good resou=
rce
of information and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doubt also
enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be tra=
ced
to certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that do not go
away, but are maintained as the only correct versions. </span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Br=
uce</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3DdivRpF516364>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style=3D'fon=
t-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Still Doing It Right</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#C00=
000'>There
is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry
Kissinger, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.</=
span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#C00=
000'>Nonetheless,
it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if no one doe=
s it
right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough for me to
show her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who is,=
by
any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.</span></strong><=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Rebalanci=
ng
Relations With China</span></strong><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'=
><br>
<strong>.</strong></span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>By <strong>Henry =
A.
Kissinger, </strong>Wednesday, August 19, 2009 <br>
.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>For several decad=
es, the
global economic system was sustained by acceptance of American
predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's appetite =
for
consumer goods <span style=3D'color:#C00000'>(</span><strong>had sent</=
strong><span
style=3D'color:#C00000'>) <strong><u>sent</u></strong></span> enor=
mous
amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for
still more buying.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#C00=
000'>That's
the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the
whole article. </span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#C00=
000'>Some
people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.</span>=
</strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#C00=
000'>It
should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.</span></strong><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:#C00=
000'>.brad.19aug09. </span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif"'><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<DIV>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt';font-family:'"Helvetic=
a","Tahoma","Arial","sans-serif"'><font color=3D"#666666"><br><br> NOTICE: =
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may=
contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, =
use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended =
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of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1374A78E19725MBX01ldschurc_--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:47:24 -0500
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
--Apple-Mail-4--254378023
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=WINDOWS-1252;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Bruce,
Brad admires Kissinger's writing in general, and yet even Kissinger =20
made what Brad considers to be a blooper. Most people would have =20
trouble reconciling these two concepts: a writer one holds dear =20
making an error that one holds dear. Bruce, your confusion is =20
understandable. It's confusing to have an argument put forth that =20
uses evidence that contradicts it, and then in the next breath to =20
hear a denial of the existence of that very evidence: "Lots of people =20=
do it right, including Henry."
Brad misstated my position when he said that I claimed that "if no =20
one does it right it must be wrong." My position is if so many =20
people do it "wrong" and the "error" doesn't cause confusion nor =20
social rejection, it must not be an error. The fact that Kissinger =20
does it right and also does it "wrong," is evidence to me that BOTH =20
ways can be considered correct. When a "wonderful manipulator of our =20=
language" uses an extra "had," Brad would do well to analyze the =20
effect that redundancy has on readers.
I don't think unkindly of Brad. I don't think he is stupid. In =20
other areas (for example, ESL learners) he is very thoughtful. But =20
on this issue, Brad does not listen and does not engage in argument. =20=
He simply presents examples without explanation, and that is not =20
enough for an argument.
The only thing I love more than grammar is argument. That's why I =20
engaged Brad this summer off list. I really wanted to hear his =20
argument and respond to it because it just doesn't make sense to me. =20=
I was curious to know what his reasoning was. I encourage anyone who =20=
is interested to give Brad a try offlist. But this list has heard =20
Brad's argument. This list has even taken Brad's survey, yet he =20
would like to give it again. It is unclear what Brad hopes to gain =20
since his survey doesn't even take my position into account. And =20
this is they very argument that Brad cannot hear: using the past =20
perfect in a simple past construction can be optional.
Susan
On Aug 20, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bruce Despain wrote:
> Brad, et al.
>
> Sorry I missed the point. Where did I go wrong? I thought the =20
> point was that =93had sent=94 and =93sent=94 underlined were two =
options =20
> and that Dr. Kissinger had chosen the correct option. I also =20
> thought Brad wanted to point out that this author knew what he was =20
> doing when he made the choice. (I was also checking to see if my =20
> sentence with =93had,=94 which was syntactically equivalent, would =
pass =20
> muster.) I cannot for the world understand how numbers are going =20
> help the investigation. Is the investigator looking for an =20
> explanation for the phenomenon or is the desire simply to prove =20
> that it exists and that there is a difference of opinion about its =20
> most appropriate analysis, which might eventually lead to an =20
> explanation? I believe there is ample evidence about the =20
> difference of opinion that exists. I don=92t understand the =20
> importance of discovering that a particular individual has a =20
> particular opinion about the difference. Does the investigator =20
> want to make sure he is in the =93right=94 camp? Does he want to make =
=20
> sure a majority agrees with him? Does he want to find out if he is =20=
> on a par with other English teachers? Does he need to prove that =20
> =93most=94 English teachers have it all wrong? I am at a loss to know =
=20
> how one could build objectively on such detailed information to =20
> build a satisfying explanation for the phenomenon. I think the =20
> grammatical choice is indeed socially conditioned, but then =20
> limiting the inquiry to English teachers does not seem =20
> appropriate. The social dynamics of language use is, I believe, =20
> much too overt and self-conscious in that group. Journalists would =20=
> also seem to be self-conscious with regard to language use and =20
> yield biased data. It is probably a good thing that it is not easy =20=
> to query them individually about their grammatical choices. The =20
> numbers would tell more about the group queried than the =20
> grammatical phenomenon for which we seek an explanation. (I =20
> suppose it can also tell us a lot about the investigator.) If the =20
> social dynamics of grammatical choice is what is being studied, I =20
> would think that the investigator would stay aloof and be careful =20
> not to become part of those dynamics by insisting on one particular =20=
> choice.
>
> By the way, I agree that teaching might well be improved by using =20
> terms more appropriate to our particular understanding, just as =20
> Bill has suggested.
>
> Bruce
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
>
> You missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to expect from =20
> you. What I don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest =20=
> of the 300+ teachers on the list think about the subject at hand, =20
> (or any subject), which you missed but they may well not have =20
> missed. I hear from them from time to time, off list, but most of =20
> them will not put up with what you ladle out, as below.
>
> I wish I could ask them specific questions en masse and get them to =20=
> reply individually, off list, so they can be counted but I haven't =20
> yet found a way to do it. You want to argue but I still want to =20
> count heads. The only head count I was able to get came out 60-40, =20
> which certainly indicates a difference of opinion, but I have not =20
> yet found a way to build on it.
>
> .brad.20aug09.
>
> --- On Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM
>
> Brad,
>
> I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know =20
> certain speakers of English will not understand the point of view =20
> that Kissinger intends to comply with in his use of "had." No =20
> matter how many times they may be told that there are dialects that =20=
> accept the past perfect form in such a context, they must always =20
> prescriptively praise their own dialect as the only correct one. I =20=
> understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be communicating with =20
> this form the same way I would make the attempt. For many months, =20
> this listserve was sustained by over 300 interested English =20
> teachers. Their appetite for a healthy discussion of relevant =20
> issues had made it a good resource of information and pedagogical =20
> strategies, which you have no doubt also enjoyed. Perhaps the =20
> current downturn in readership can be traced to certain repetitive =20
> observations of dialect differences that do not go away, but are =20
> maintained as the only correct versions.
>
> Bruce
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =20
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston =20
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Still Doing It Right
>
> There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry =20
> Kissinger, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
>
> Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim =20
> that if no one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay =20
> around long enough for me to show her that lots of people do it =20
> right, including Henry, who is, by any standard, a wonderful =20
> manipulator of our language.
>
> Rebalancing Relations With China
> .
> By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009
> .
> For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by =20
> acceptance of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity =20
> coupled with America's appetite for consumer goods (had sent) sent =20
> enormous amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent =20
> back to us for still more buying.
>
> That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- =20
> in the whole article.
>
> Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.
>
> It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
>
> .brad.19aug09.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =20
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended =20
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged =20
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or =20
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, =20
> please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of =20
> the original message.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =20
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =20
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-4--254378023
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=WINDOWS-1252
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Bruce, <div><br></div><div>Brad admires Kissinger's writing in =
general, and yet even Kissinger made what Brad considers to be a =
blooper. Most people would have trouble reconciling these two =
concepts: a writer one holds dear making an error that one holds dear. =
Bruce, your confusion is understandable. It's confusing to =
have an argument put forth that uses evidence that contradicts it, and =
then in the next breath to hear a denial of the existence of that very =
evidence: "Lots of people do it right, including =
Henry."<div><br></div><div>Brad misstated my position when he said that =
I claimed that "if no one does it right it must be wrong." My =
position is if so many people do it "wrong" and the "error" doesn't =
cause confusion nor social rejection, it must not be an error. The =
fact that Kissinger does it right and also does it "wrong," is evidence =
to me that BOTH ways can be considered correct. When a "wonderful =
manipulator of our language" uses an extra "had," Brad would do well to =
analyze the effect that redundancy has on =
readers.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't think unkindly of Brad. =
I don't think he is stupid. In other areas (for example, ESL =
learners) he is very thoughtful. But on this issue, Brad does not =
listen and does not engage in argument. He simply presents =
examples without explanation, and that is not enough for an =
argument. </div><div><br></div><div>The only thing I love more than =
grammar is argument. That's why I engaged Brad this summer off =
list. I really =
wanted to hear his argument and respond =
;to it because it just =
doesn't make sense to me. I was curious to =
know what his reasoning was. I encourage anyone who is interested =
to give Brad a try offlist. But this list has heard Brad's =
argument. This list has even taken Brad's survey, yet he would =
like to give it again. It is unclear what Brad hopes to gain since =
his survey doesn't even take my position into account. =
And this is they very argument that&nb=
sp;Brad cannot hear: using the past pe=
rfect in a =
simple past construction can be optional.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Susan<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Aug 20, =
2009, at 9:00 AM, Bruce Despain wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'; font-size: medium; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"Section1"><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Brad, et =
al.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: =
0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Sorry I missed the point. Where did I go =
wrong? I thought the point was that =93had sent=94 and =93sent=94 =
underlined were two options and that Dr. Kissinger had chosen the =
correct option. I also thought Brad wanted to point out that this =
author knew what he was doing when he made the choice. (I was also =
checking to see if my sentence with =93had,=94 which was syntactically =
equivalent, would pass muster.) I cannot for the world understand =
how numbers are going help the investigation. Is the investigator =
looking for an explanation for the phenomenon or is the desire simply to =
prove that it exists and that there is a difference of opinion about its =
most appropriate analysis, which might eventually lead to an =
explanation? I believe there is ample evidence about the =
difference of opinion that exists. I don=92t understand the =
importance of discovering that a particular individual has a particular =
opinion about the difference. Does the investigator want to make =
sure he is in the =93right=94 camp? Does he want to make sure a =
majority agrees with him? Does he want to find out if he is on a =
par with other English teachers? Does he need to prove that
=93most=94=
English teachers have it all wrong? I am at a loss to know how =
one could build objectively on such detailed information to build a =
satisfying explanation for the phenomenon. I think the grammatical =
choice is indeed socially conditioned, but then limiting the inquiry to =
English teachers does not seem appropriate. The social dynamics of =
language use is, I believe, much too overt and self-conscious in that =
group. Journalists would also seem to be self-conscious with =
regard to language use and yield biased data. It is probably a =
good thing that it is not easy to query them individually about their =
grammatical choices. The numbers would tell more about the group =
queried than the grammatical phenomenon for which we seek an =
explanation. (I suppose it can also tell us a lot about the =
investigator.) If the social dynamics of grammatical choice is =
what is being studied, I would think that the investigator would stay =
aloof and be careful not to become part of those dynamics by insisting =
on one particular choice. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">By the way, I agree that teaching might well be =
improved by using terms more appropriate to our particular =
understanding, just as Bill has =
suggested. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-right-style: none; =
border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: =
initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; =
padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: =
0in; "><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Assembly for the Teaching =
of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</=
a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Brad =
Johnston<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, August 20, 2009 =
5:19 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a=
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br><=
b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: =
Still Doing It Right<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div><table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" =
border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td =
valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; =
padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div><div style=3D"margin-right:=
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">You missed the point =
but that's O.K. I know what to expect from you. What I don't know, and =
you don't know either, is what the rest of the 300+ teachers on the list =
think about the subject at hand, (or any subject), which you missed but =
they may well not have missed. I hear from them from time to time, off =
list, but most of them will not put up with what you ladle out, as =
below.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">I wish I could ask =
them specific questions<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><em>en masse</em><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>and get them to =
reply<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><em>individually</em>, off =
list, so they can be counted but I haven't yet found a way to do it. You =
want to argue but I still want to count heads. The only head count =
I was able to get came out 60-40, which certainly indicates a =
difference of opinion, but I have not yet found a way to build on =
it. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
">.brad.20aug09.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br>--- On<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce =
Despain<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&=
gt;</i></b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; =
border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; =
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; =
padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; "><br>From: Bruce Despain =
<<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&=
gt;<br>Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right<br>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>D=
ate: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div =
id=3D"yiv1796461258"><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: =
0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; color: black; =
">Brad, </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">I don't know why I'm so =
stupid to reply to your comments. I know certain speakers of =
English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger intends to =
comply with in his use of "had." No matter how many times they may =
be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect form in =
such a context, they must always prescriptively praise their own =
dialect as the only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly as =
he seems to be communicating with this form the same way I would make =
the attempt. For many months, this listserve was sustained by =
over 300 interested English teachers. Their appetite for a =
healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good resource of =
information and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doubt also =
enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be =
traced to certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that do =
not go away, but are maintained as the only correct =
versions. </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">Bruce</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div id=3D"divRpF516364"><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><hr =
size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
12pt; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
"><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Assembly for the =
Teaching of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] =
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>]<br><b>Sent:=
</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, August =
19, 2009 4:28 PM<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br><=
b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Still =
Doing It Right</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><table =
class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" =
cellpadding=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding-top: =
0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; =
"><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
color: rgb(192, 0, 0); ">There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's =
paper, written by Henry Kissinger, in which there is a single =
'had' and it is a =
blooper.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(192, 0, 0); ">Nonetheless, it =
provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if no one does it =
right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough for me to =
show her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who is, =
by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our =
language.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Rebalancing Relations With =
China</span></strong><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><br><strong>.</strong></span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">By<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong>Henry A. =
Kissinger,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></strong>Wednesday, August =
19, 2009<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>.</span><o:p></o:p></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">For several =
decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance of =
American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(192, 0, 0); ">(</span><strong>had sent</strong><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(192, 0, 0); ">) <strong><u>sent</u></strong></span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>enormous amounts of dollars =
to China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more =
buying.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(192, 0, 0); ">That's the only 'had' =
there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the whole =
article.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(192, 0, 0); ">Some people, =
sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it =
right.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(192, 0, 0); ">It should be taught =
the right way, not the wrong =
way.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(192, 0, 0); =
">.brad.19aug09. </span></strong><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></td></=
tr></tbody></table></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><div=
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's web interface at: <a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the =
list"<o:p></o:p></span></div><p style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: =
0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Visit =
ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; "><span =
;font-family:'"helvetica","tahoma","arial","sans-serif"'=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; "><font color=3D"#666666"><br><br>NOTICE: This =
email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may =
contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized =
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and =
destroy all copies of the original message.</font></span><font =
color=3D"#666666"><o:p></o:p></font></div><font =
color=3D"#666666"></font></div><font color=3D"#666666">To join or leave =
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a =
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hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"<p =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
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e></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-4--254378023--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:39:35 -0400
From: Richard Henry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01CA2193.4624DAD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please please please remove me from this list. The signal to noise ratio =
has become unbearable.
Rick Henry
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Susan van Druten=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
Bruce,=20
Brad admires Kissinger's writing in general, and yet even Kissinger =
made what Brad considers to be a blooper. Most people would have =
trouble reconciling these two concepts: a writer one holds dear making =
an error that one holds dear. Bruce, your confusion is understandable. =
It's confusing to have an argument put forth that uses evidence that =
contradicts it, and then in the next breath to hear a denial of the =
existence of that very evidence: "Lots of people do it right, including =
Henry."
Brad misstated my position when he said that I claimed that "if no one =
does it right it must be wrong." My position is if so many people do it =
"wrong" and the "error" doesn't cause confusion nor social rejection, it =
must not be an error. The fact that Kissinger does it right and also =
does it "wrong," is evidence to me that BOTH ways can be considered =
correct. When a "wonderful manipulator of our language" uses an extra =
"had," Brad would do well to analyze the effect that redundancy has on =
readers.
I don't think unkindly of Brad. I don't think he is stupid. In other =
areas (for example, ESL learners) he is very thoughtful. But on this =
issue, Brad does not listen and does not engage in argument. He simply =
presents examples without explanation, and that is not enough for an =
argument.=20
The only thing I love more than grammar is argument. That's why I =
engaged Brad this summer off list. I really wanted to hear his argument =
and respond to it because it just doesn't make sense to me. I was =
curious to know what his reasoning was. I encourage anyone who is =
interested to give Brad a try offlist. But this list has heard Brad's =
argument. This list has even taken Brad's survey, yet he would like to =
give it again. It is unclear what Brad hopes to gain since his survey =
doesn't even take my position into account. And this is they very =
argument that Brad cannot hear: using the past perfect in a simple past =
construction can be optional.
Susan
On Aug 20, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bruce Despain wrote:
Brad, et al.
Sorry I missed the point. Where did I go wrong? I thought the =
point was that =93had sent=94 and =93sent=94 underlined were two options =
and that Dr. Kissinger had chosen the correct option. I also thought =
Brad wanted to point out that this author knew what he was doing when he =
made the choice. (I was also checking to see if my sentence with =
=93had,=94 which was syntactically equivalent, would pass muster.) I =
cannot for the world understand how numbers are going help the =
investigation. Is the investigator looking for an explanation for the =
phenomenon or is the desire simply to prove that it exists and that =
there is a difference of opinion about its most appropriate analysis, =
which might eventually lead to an explanation? I believe there is ample =
evidence about the difference of opinion that exists. I don=92t =
understand the importance of discovering that a particular individual =
has a particular opinion about the difference. Does the investigator =
want to make sure he is in the =93right=94 camp? Does he want to make =
sure a majority agrees with him? Does he want to find out if he is on a =
par with other English teachers? Does he need to prove that =93most=94 =
English teachers have it all wrong? I am at a loss to know how one =
could build objectively on such detailed information to build a =
satisfying explanation for the phenomenon. I think the grammatical =
choice is indeed socially conditioned, but then limiting the inquiry to =
English teachers does not seem appropriate. The social dynamics of =
language use is, I believe, much too overt and self-conscious in that =
group. Journalists would also seem to be self-conscious with regard to =
language use and yield biased data. It is probably a good thing that it =
is not easy to query them individually about their grammatical choices. =
The numbers would tell more about the group queried than the grammatical =
phenomenon for which we seek an explanation. (I suppose it can also =
tell us a lot about the investigator.) If the social dynamics of =
grammatical choice is what is being studied, I would think that the =
investigator would stay aloof and be careful not to become part of those =
dynamics by insisting on one particular choice.=20
By the way, I agree that teaching might well be improved by using =
terms more appropriate to our particular understanding, just as Bill has =
suggested.=20
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
You missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to expect =
from you. What I don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest =
of the 300+ teachers on the list think about the subject at hand, (or =
any subject), which you missed but they may well not have missed. I hear =
from them from time to time, off list, but most of them will not put up =
with what you ladle out, as below.
I wish I could ask them specific questions en masse and get =
them to reply individually, off list, so they can be counted but I =
haven't yet found a way to do it. You want to argue but I still want to =
count heads. The only head count I was able to get came out 60-40, which =
certainly indicates a difference of opinion, but I have not yet found a =
way to build on it.=20
.brad.20aug09.
--- On Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM
Brad,=20
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I =
know certain speakers of English will not understand the point of view =
that Kissinger intends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter =
how many times they may be told that there are dialects that accept the =
past perfect form in such a context, they must always prescriptively =
praise their own dialect as the only correct one. I understood Henry =
perfectly as he seems to be communicating with this form the same way I =
would make the attempt. For many months, this listserve was sustained =
by over 300 interested English teachers. Their appetite for a healthy =
discussion of relevant issues had made it a good resource of information =
and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doubt also enjoyed. =
Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be traced to certain =
repetitive observations of dialect differences that do not go away, but =
are maintained as the only correct versions.=20
Bruce
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston =
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, =
written by Henry Kissinger, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a =
blooper.
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute =
Susan's claim that if no one does it right, it must be wrong. She did =
not stay around long enough for me to show her that lots of people do it =
right, including Henry, who is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator =
of our language.
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009=20
.
For several decades, the global economic system was =
sustained by acceptance of American predominance. A vast tide of =
liquidity coupled with America's appetite for consumer goods (had sent) =
sent enormous amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent =
back to us for still more buying.
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or =
indifferent -- in the whole article.
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do =
it right.
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
.brad.19aug09. =20
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
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NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended =
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. =
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
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"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01CA2193.4624DAD0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18812">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Please please please remove me from =
this list. The=20
signal to noise ratio has become unbearable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Rick Henry</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Susan van=20
Druten</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 20, 2009 =
11:47=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Still Doing It =
Right</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Bruce,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Brad admires Kissinger's writing in general, and yet even =
Kissinger made=20
what Brad considers to be a blooper. Most people would have =
trouble=20
reconciling these two concepts: a writer one holds dear making an =
error that=20
one holds dear. Bruce, your confusion is understandable. =
It's=20
confusing to have an argument put forth that uses evidence that =
contradicts=20
it, and then in the next breath to hear a denial of the existence of =
that very=20
evidence: "Lots of people do it right, including Henry."
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Brad misstated my position when he said that I claimed that "if =
no one=20
does it right it must be wrong." My position is if so many =
people do it=20
"wrong" and the "error" doesn't cause confusion nor social rejection, =
it must=20
not be an error. The fact that Kissinger does it right and also =
does it=20
"wrong," is evidence to me that BOTH ways can be considered correct.=20
When a "wonderful manipulator of our language" uses an extra =
"had," Brad=20
would do well to analyze the effect that redundancy has on =
readers.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don't think unkindly of Brad. I don't think he is stupid. =
In other areas (for example, ESL learners) he is very =
thoughtful.=20
But on this issue, Brad does not listen and does not engage in =
argument.=20
He simply presents examples without explanation, and that is not =
enough=20
for an argument. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The only thing I love more than grammar is argument. That's =
why I=20
engaged Brad this summer off list. I really=20
=
wanted to hear his argument and respond&nbs=
p;to it because it just=20
doesn't make sense to me. I was curious to =
know what=20
his reasoning was. I encourage anyone who is interested to give =
Brad a=20
try offlist. But this list has heard Brad's argument. This =
list=20
has even taken Brad's survey, yet he would like to give it again. =
It is=20
unclear what Brad hopes to gain since his survey doesn't even take my =
position=20
into account.=20
=
And this is they very argument that&n=
bsp;Brad cannot hear: using the past =
perfect in a=20
=
simple past construction can be optional.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Susan<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Aug 20, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bruce Despain wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN=20
style=3D"WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium 'Comic Sans MS'; WHITE-SPACE: =
normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); =
WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"=20
class=3DApple-style-span>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Brad,=20
et al.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Sorry=20
I missed the point. Where did I go wrong? I thought the =
point=20
was that =93had sent=94 and =93sent=94 underlined were two options =
and that Dr.=20
Kissinger had chosen the correct option. I also thought Brad =
wanted to=20
point out that this author knew what he was doing when he made the=20
choice. (I was also checking to see if my sentence with =
=93had,=94 which=20
was syntactically equivalent, would pass muster.) I cannot for =
the=20
world understand how numbers are going help the investigation. =
Is the=20
investigator looking for an explanation for the phenomenon or is the =
desire=20
simply to prove that it exists and that there is a difference of =
opinion=20
about its most appropriate analysis, which might eventually lead to =
an=20
explanation? I believe there is ample evidence about the =
difference of=20
opinion that exists. I don=92t understand the importance of =
discovering=20
that a particular individual has a particular opinion about the=20
difference. Does the investigator want to make sure he is in =
the=20
=93right=94 camp? Does he want to make sure a majority agrees =
with=20
him? Does he want to find out if he is on a par with other =
English=20
teachers? Does he need to prove that =93most=94 English =
teachers have it=20
all wrong? I am at a loss to know how one could build =
objectively on=20
such detailed information to build a satisfying explanation for the=20
phenomenon. I think the grammatical choice is indeed socially=20
conditioned, but then limiting the inquiry to English teachers does =
not seem=20
appropriate. The social dynamics of language use is, I =
believe, much=20
too overt and self-conscious in that group. Journalists would =
also=20
seem to be self-conscious with regard to language use and yield =
biased=20
data. It is probably a good thing that it is not easy to query =
them=20
individually about their grammatical choices. The numbers =
would tell=20
more about the group queried than the grammatical phenomenon for =
which we=20
seek an explanation. (I suppose it can also tell us a lot =
about the=20
investigator.) If the social dynamics of grammatical choice is =
what is=20
being studied, I would think that the investigator would stay aloof =
and be=20
careful not to become part of those dynamics by insisting on one =
particular=20
choice. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">By=20
the way, I agree that teaching might well be improved by using terms =
more=20
appropriate to our particular understanding, just as Bill has=20
suggested. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Bruce<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; =
BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; =
PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Assembly for the Teaching =
of=20
English Grammar [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]<=
/A>]<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>On Behalf Of<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Brad=20
Johnston<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Thursday, August 20, 2009 =
5:19=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>=
<B>Subject:</B><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: Still Doing It=20
Right<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"=20
vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You=20
missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to expect from =
you. What=20
I don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest of =
the 300+=20
teachers on the list think about the subject at hand, (or any=20
subject), which you missed but they may well not have missed. =
I hear=20
from them from time to time, off list, but most of them will =
not put=20
up with what you ladle out, as below.<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I=20
wish I could ask them specific questions<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>en =
masse</EM><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>and get them =
to=20
reply<SPAN=20
=
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>individually</EM>, off=20
list, so they can be counted but I haven't yet found a way to =
do it.=20
You want to argue but I still want to count heads. The =
only head=20
count I was able to get came out 60-40, which certainly =
indicates=20
a difference of opinion, but I have not yet found a way =
to build=20
on it. <O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">.brad.20aug09.<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>---=20
On<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>Wed, =
8/19/09,=20
Bruce Despain<SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><I><<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=
></I></B><SPAN=20
=
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: =
none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; =
BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; =
PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"=20
class=3DMsoNormal><BR>From: Bruce Despain <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=
><BR>Subject:=20
Re: Still Doing It Right<BR>To: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>=
Date:=20
Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM<O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1796461258>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: =
black">Brad, </SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif">I don't know why =
I'm so=20
stupid to reply to your comments. I know certain =
speakers of=20
English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger =
intends=20
to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how many =
times=20
they may be told that there are dialects that accept the =
past=20
perfect form in such a context, they must always =
prescriptively=20
praise their own dialect as the only correct one. =
I=20
understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be communicating =
with this=20
form the same way I would make the attempt. For many=20
months, this listserve was sustained by over 300 =
interested=20
English teachers. Their appetite for a healthy =
discussion=20
of relevant issues had made it a good resource of =
information and=20
pedagogical strategies, which you have no doubt also=20
enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in =
readership can=20
be traced to certain repetitive observations of dialect =
differences=20
that do not go away, but are maintained as the only correct=20
versions. </SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, =
sans-serif">Bruce</SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=3DdivRpF516364>
<DIV=20
style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"=20
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter>
<HR align=3Dcenter SIZE=3D2 width=3D"100%">
</DIV>
<P=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"=20
class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, =
sans-serif">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif"><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Assembly for the =
Teaching=20
of English Grammar [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]=20
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>]<BR><B>Sent=
:</B><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Wednesday, August =
19, 2009=20
4:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR>=
<B>Subject:</B><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Still Doing It=20
Right</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD=20
style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"=20
vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">There =
is a=20
905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written =
by Henry=20
Kissinger, in which there is a single 'had' and =
it is a=20
blooper.</SPAN></STRONG><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Nonetheless, it=20
provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that =
if no=20
one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay =
around=20
long enough for me to show her that lots of =
people do it=20
right, including Henry, who is, by any standard, a =
wonderful=20
manipulator of our=20
language.</SPAN></STRONG><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Rebalancing Relations With=20
China</SPAN></STRONG><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR><STRONG>.</STRONG></SPAN></B><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">By<SPAN=20
=
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><STRONG>Henry A.=20
Kissinger,<SPAN=20
=
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></STRONG>Wednesday,=20
August 19, 2009<SPAN=20
=
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV><=
/DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For several decades, the =
global=20
economic system was sustained by acceptance of =
American=20
predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with =
America's=20
appetite for consumer goods<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0)">(</SPAN><STRONG>had=20
sent</STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
rgb(192,0,0)">) <STRONG><U>sent</U></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>enormous =
amounts of=20
dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent back to =
us for=20
still more buying.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">That's =
the only=20
'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- =
in the=20
whole article.</SPAN></STRONG><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Some =
people,=20
sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it=20
right.</SPAN></STRONG><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt">It =
should be=20
taught the right way, not the wrong=20
way.</SPAN></STRONG><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">.brad.19aug09. </SPAN></STRONG><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV></DIV></=
TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABL=
E>
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------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01CA2193.4624DAD0--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:38:13 -0500
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Howdy, Y'all
--000feaefb6989d32b2047197e512
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
I went to UA there in Tuscaloosa for grad school and taught high school
there as well. I either was never exposed to this newer usage or heard it
and just never made the connection. Fascinating though! Please feel free to
pass along any references you find concerning this.
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>wr=
ote:
> John,
>
>
>
> I=92ve heard some claims that among younger speakers, there=92s some usag=
e of
> =93y=92all=94 that is recapitulating what happened much earlier to the th=
ou/you
> distinction =96 that is, some younger Southerners are using a kind of sin=
gular
> =93y=92all=94 to mark politeness. I=92m originally from the Tuscaloosa ar=
ea, so am a
> native y=92all-speaker, but I have heard what I would view as odd uses of=
it
> from young people who otherwise sound quite authentically Southern. There=
=92s
> an article on it somewhere; I=92ll try to dig up the reference.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
>
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *John Dews-Alexander
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:48 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: Howdy, Y'all
>
>
>
> I grew up in South Alabama (transplanted to Texas), DD, and use "y'all" t=
he
> same way. I've known people who try to emulate the usage, but aren't quit=
e
> sure of the "rules" that native users know. The result is odd. I find mys=
elf
> looking around in confusion, trying to spot the extra people who must mak=
e
> up the "y'all."
>
> The classic example is from the movie *Midnight in the Garden of Good and
> Evil* when the lead male character's love interest (who is supposed to be
> from Savannah) walks into the lead's hotel room and says, "Y'all got any
> ice?" even though she knows he's all alone in there. It's very interestin=
g.
>
> John Alexander
> Austin, Texas
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 2:34 PM, DD Farms <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> At 01:00 p.m. 18/08/2009, Katz, Seth wrote:
>
> . . . I still use y'all (and I think its use is spreading). But don't you
> find that people use it as both a singular and a plural? Though the singu=
lar
> may imply something like 'you and your people.' Opinions?
>
>
> DD: Aged Decayed Southron [ Suthrun ] gentry am I. I use it both ways,
> too. As a plural, usually, but singularly meaning both you and your famil=
y,
> but also as a shortcut for you and all your affairs. Obviously if I say,
> "Y'all want to come over to my farm?" and it is addressed to one person, =
it
> means you and your family. If it is said to two or more it probably doesn=
't
> include their family. If I wanted them, too, I'd add something like, "And
> bring your folks, too." In East Tennessee Hill country, it will most like=
ly
> be, Y'uns." "Y'uns come, weuns ain't much for going."
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
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>
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--000feaefb6989d32b2047197e512
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill, <br><br>I went to UA there in Tuscaloosa for grad school and taught h=
igh school there as well. I either was never exposed to this newer usage or=
heard it and just never made the connection. Fascinating though! Please fe=
el free to pass along any references you find concerning this.<br>
<br>John Alexander<br>Austin, Texas<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On We=
d, Aug 19, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Spruiell, William C <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<b=
r>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John,</span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I=92ve heard s=
ome claims that among younger speakers, there=92s some
usage of =93y=92all=94 that is recapitulating what happened much earlier to=
the thou/you
distinction =96 that is, some younger Southerners are using a kind of singu=
lar =93y=92all=94
to mark politeness. I=92m originally from the Tuscaloosa area, so am a nati=
ve y=92all-speaker,
but I have heard what I would view as odd uses of it from young people who =
otherwise
sound quite authentically Southern. There=92s an article on it somewhere; I=
=92ll
try to dig up the reference.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill Spruiell<=
/span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dept. of Engli=
sh</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Central Michig=
an University </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 22=
3) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium=
; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt;"> Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jo=
hn
Dews-Alexander<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 18, 2009 3:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">AT=
[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Howdy, Y'all</span></p>
</div>
<p>=A0</p>
<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">I grew up in South Alabama
(transplanted to Texas), DD, and use "y'all" the same way. I&=
#39;ve known
people who try to emulate the usage, but aren't quite sure of the
"rules" that native users know. The result is odd. I find myself
looking around in confusion, trying to spot the extra people who must make =
up
the "y'all."<br>
<br>
The classic example is from the movie <i>Midnight in the Garden of Good and
Evil</i> when the lead male character's love interest (who is supposed =
to be
from Savannah) walks into the lead's hotel room and says, "Y'a=
ll got any
ice?" even though she knows he's all alone in there. It's very
interesting.<br>
<br>
John Alexander<br>
Austin, Texas</p>
<div>
<p>On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 2:34 PM, DD Farms <<a href=3D"mailto:ddfarms@=
charter.net" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:</p>
<p>At 01:00 p.m. 18/08/2009, Katz, Seth wrote:</p>
<p>. . . I still use y'all (and I think its use is spreading).
But don't you find that people use it as both a singular and a plural? =
Though
the singular may imply something like 'you and your people.' Opinio=
ns?</p>
<p><br>
DD: =A0Aged Decayed Southron [ Suthrun ] gentry am I. I use it both ways,
too. As a plural, usually, but singularly meaning both you and your family,=
but
also as a shortcut for you and all your affairs. Obviously if I say,
"Y'all want to come over to my farm?" and it is addressed to =
one
person, it means you and your family. If it is said to two or more it proba=
bly
doesn't include their family. If I wanted them, too, I'd add someth=
ing like,
"And bring your folks, too." In East Tennessee Hill country, it w=
ill
most likely be, Y'uns." "Y'uns come, weuns ain't much=
for
going." <br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:<br>
=A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"=
_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a></p>
</div>
<p><br>
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>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or=
leave
the list" </p>
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nk">http://ateg.org/</a> </p>
</div>
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--000feaefb6989d32b2047197e512--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:00:56 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Still Doing It Right
--0-1307975756-1250820056=:9891
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Susan, Bruce, et al,
=C2=A0
Susan writes, "And this is the very argument that Brad cannot hear: using t=
he past perfect in a simple past construction can be optional."
=C2=A0
Brad sez,=C2=A0the word 'had' does not belong in front of a verb which is, =
by virtue of how it functions,=C2=A0a past tense verb.
=C2=A0
Susan sez, it's optional.
=C2=A0
You nailed it, Susan. Ask the list and see how many answers you can get. As=
k them to please=C2=A0reply to you at [log in to unmask]
u rack up the votes.=C2=A0Ask them to please not muddy it=C2=A0with explana=
tions and caveats but=C2=A0just vote that 'had' is "optional" or "not optio=
nal" in front of a past tense verb. One or the other. Maybe you can get all=
=C2=A0330+ to vote. That would be nice.
=C2=A0
.brad.20aug09.=C2=A0
--- On Thu, 8/20/09, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 11:47 AM
Bruce,=C2=A0=20
Brad admires Kissinger's writing in general, and yet even Kissinger made wh=
at Brad considers to be a blooper. =C2=A0Most people would have trouble rec=
onciling these two concepts: a writer one holds dear making an error that o=
ne holds dear. =C2=A0Bruce, your confusion is understandable. =C2=A0It's co=
nfusing to have an argument put forth that uses evidence that contradicts i=
t, and then in the next breath to hear a denial of the existence of that ve=
ry evidence: "Lots of people do it right, including Henry."=20
Brad misstated my position when he said that I claimed that "if no one does=
it right it must be wrong." =C2=A0My position is if so many people do it "=
wrong" and the "error" doesn't cause confusion nor social rejection, it mus=
t not be an error. =C2=A0The fact that Kissinger does it right and also doe=
s it "wrong," is evidence to me that BOTH ways can be considered correct. =
=C2=A0When a "wonderful manipulator of our language" uses an extra "had," B=
rad would do well to analyze the effect that redundancy has on readers.
I don't think unkindly of Brad. =C2=A0I don't think he is stupid. =C2=A0In =
other areas (for example, ESL learners) he is very thoughtful. =C2=A0But on=
this issue, Brad does not listen and does not engage in argument. =C2=A0He=
simply presents examples without explanation, and that is not enough for a=
n argument.=C2=A0
The only thing I love more than grammar is argument. =C2=A0That's why I eng=
aged Brad this summer off list. =C2=A0I really wanted=C2=A0to=C2=A0hear=C2=
=A0his=C2=A0argument=C2=A0and=C2=A0respond=C2=A0to=C2=A0it=C2=A0because=C2=
=A0it=C2=A0just doesn't=C2=A0make=C2=A0sense=C2=A0to=C2=A0me. =C2=A0I was c=
urious to know what his reasoning was. =C2=A0I encourage anyone who is inte=
rested to give Brad a try offlist. =C2=A0But this list has heard Brad's arg=
ument. =C2=A0This list has even taken Brad's survey, yet he would like to g=
ive it again. =C2=A0It is unclear what Brad hopes to gain since his survey =
doesn't even take my position into account. =C2=A0And=C2=A0this=C2=A0is=C2=
=A0they=C2=A0very=C2=A0argument=C2=A0that=C2=A0Brad=C2=A0cannot=C2=A0hear:=
=C2=A0=C2=A0using=C2=A0the=C2=A0past=C2=A0perfect=C2=A0in=C2=A0a simple=C2=
=A0past=C2=A0construction=C2=A0can=C2=A0be=C2=A0optional.
Susan
On Aug 20, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bruce Despain wrote:
Brad, et al.
=C2=A0
Sorry I missed the point.=C2=A0 Where did I go wrong?=C2=A0 I thought the p=
oint was that =E2=80=9Chad sent=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csent=E2=80=9D underli=
ned were two options and that Dr. Kissinger had chosen the correct option.=
=C2=A0 I also thought Brad wanted to point out that this author knew what h=
e was doing when he made the choice.=C2=A0 (I was also checking to see if m=
y sentence with =E2=80=9Chad,=E2=80=9D which was syntactically equivalent, =
would pass muster.) =C2=A0I cannot for the world understand how numbers are=
going help the investigation.=C2=A0 Is the investigator looking for an exp=
lanation for the phenomenon or is the desire simply to prove that it exists=
and that there is a difference of opinion about its most appropriate analy=
sis, which might eventually lead to an explanation?=C2=A0 I believe there i=
s ample evidence about the difference of opinion that exists.=C2=A0 I don=
=E2=80=99t understand the importance of discovering that a particular indiv=
idual has a particular opinion about the difference.=C2=A0 Does the
investigator want to make sure he is in the =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D camp?=
=C2=A0 Does he want to make sure a majority agrees with him?=C2=A0 Does he =
want to find out if he is on a par with other English teachers?=C2=A0 Does =
he need to prove that =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D English teachers have it all w=
rong?=C2=A0 I am at a loss to know how one could build objectively on such =
detailed information to build a satisfying explanation for the phenomenon.=
=C2=A0 I think the grammatical choice is indeed socially conditioned, but t=
hen limiting the inquiry to English teachers does not seem appropriate.=C2=
=A0 The social dynamics of language use is, I believe, much too overt and s=
elf-conscious in that group.=C2=A0 Journalists would also seem to be self-c=
onscious with regard to language use and yield biased data.=C2=A0 It is pro=
bably a good thing that it is not easy to query them individually about the=
ir grammatical choices. =C2=A0The numbers would tell more about the group q=
ueried than the grammatical phenomenon for which we seek
an explanation.=C2=A0 (I suppose it can also tell us a lot about the inves=
tigator.) =C2=A0If the social dynamics of grammatical choice is what is bei=
ng studied, I would think that the investigator would stay aloof and be car=
eful not to become part of those dynamics by insisting on one particular ch=
oice.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
By the way, I agree that teaching might well be improved by using terms mor=
e appropriate to our particular understanding, just as Bill has suggested.=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Bruce
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=
RV.MUOHIO.EDU]=C2=A0On Behalf Of=C2=A0Brad Johnston
Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:19 AM
To:[log in to unmask]
Subject:=C2=A0Re: Still Doing It Right
=C2=A0
You missed the point but that's O.K. I know what to expect from you. What I=
don't know, and you don't know either, is what the rest of the 300+ teache=
rs on the list think about the subject at hand, (or any subject), which you=
missed but they may well not have missed. I hear from them from time to ti=
me, off list, but most of them will not put up with what you ladle out, as =
below.
=C2=A0
I wish I could ask them specific questions=C2=A0en masse=C2=A0and=C2=A0get =
them to reply=C2=A0individually, off list, so they can be counted but I hav=
en't yet found a way to do it. You want to argue but I still want=C2=A0to c=
ount heads. The only head count I was able to get came out=C2=A060-40, whic=
h certainly indicates a difference of opinion, but I have=C2=A0not yet foun=
d a way to build on it.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
.brad.20aug09.
--- On=C2=A0Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain=C2=A0<[log in to unmask]>=
=C2=A0wrote:
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM=20
Brad,=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments.=C2=A0 I know cert=
ain speakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kissinge=
r intends to comply with in his use of "had."=C2=A0 No matter how many time=
s they may be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect for=
m in such a context, they must always prescriptively praise=C2=A0their own =
dialect as the only correct one.=C2=A0 I understood Henry perfectly as he s=
eems to be communicating with this form the same way I would make the attem=
pt.=C2=A0 For many months,=C2=A0this listserve was sustained by over 300 in=
terested English teachers.=C2=A0 Their appetite for=C2=A0a healthy discussi=
on of relevant issues had made it a good resource of information and pedago=
gical strategies, which you have no doubt also enjoyed.=C2=A0=C2=A0Perhaps =
the current downturn in readership can be traced to certain repetitive obse=
rvations of dialect differences that do not go away, but are maintained as =
the only correct versions.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Bruce
From:=C2=A0Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent:=C2=A0Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To:[log in to unmask]
Subject:=C2=A0Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by=C2=A0Henry Kis=
singer, in which=C2=A0there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
=C2=A0
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if n=
o one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough =
for me to show=C2=A0her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, w=
ho is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
=C2=A0
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By=C2=A0Henry A. Kissinger,=C2=A0Wednesday, August 19, 2009=C2=A0
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance=
of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods=C2=A0(had sent)=C2=A0sent=C2=A0enormous amounts=
of dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more =
buying.
=C2=A0
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent=C2=A0-- in t=
he whole article.
=C2=A0
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people=C2=A0do it right.
=C2=A0
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
=C2=A0
.brad.19aug09.=C2=A0
=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1307975756-1250820056=:9891
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV id=3Dyiv2136773825>
<DIV>Susan, Bruce, et al,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Susan writes, "And this is the very argument that Brad cannot hear<STR=
ONG>:</STRONG> using the past perfect in a simple past construction can be =
optional."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Brad sez, the word 'had' does not belong in front of a verb which=
is, by virtue of how it functions, a past tense verb.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Susan sez, it's optional.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You nailed it, Susan. Ask the list and see how many answers you can ge=
t. Ask them to please reply to you at <A href=3D"mailto:bosvd@cpintern=
et.com"><EM><STRONG>[log in to unmask]</STRONG></EM></A><EM><STRONG> =
;</STRONG></EM>and<EM><STRONG> </STRONG></EM>you rack up the votes.&nb=
sp;Ask them to please not muddy it with explanations and caveats but&n=
bsp;just vote that 'had' is "optional" or "not optional" in front of a past=
tense verb. One or the other. Maybe you can get all 330+ to vote. Tha=
t would be nice.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>.brad.20aug09. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 8/20/09, Susan van Druten <I><[log in to unmask]
OM></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]><B=
R>Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date=
: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 11:47 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv506970112>Bruce, =20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Brad admires Kissinger's writing in general, and yet even Kissinger ma=
de what Brad considers to be a blooper. Most people would have troubl=
e reconciling these two concepts: a writer one holds dear making an error t=
hat one holds dear. Bruce, your confusion is understandable. It=
's confusing to have an argument put forth that uses evidence that contradi=
cts it, and then in the next breath to hear a denial of the existence of th=
at very evidence: "Lots of people do it right, including Henry."=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Brad misstated my position when he said that I claimed that "if no one=
does it right it must be wrong." My position is if so many people do=
it "wrong" and the "error" doesn't cause confusion nor social rejection, i=
t must not be an error. The fact that Kissinger does it right and als=
o does it "wrong," is evidence to me that BOTH ways can be considered corre=
ct. When a "wonderful manipulator of our language" uses an extra "had=
," Brad would do well to analyze the effect that redundancy has on readers.=
</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don't think unkindly of Brad. I don't think he is stupid. &nbs=
p;In other areas (for example, ESL learners) he is very thoughtful. B=
ut on this issue, Brad does not listen and does not engage in argument. &nb=
sp;He simply presents examples without explanation, and that is not enough =
for an argument. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The only thing I love more than grammar is argument. That's why =
I engaged Brad this summer off list. I really wanted to hea=
r his argument and respond to it because=
it just doesn't make sense to me. I wa=
s curious to know what his reasoning was. I encourage anyone who is i=
nterested to give Brad a try offlist. But this list has heard Brad's =
argument. This list has even taken Brad's survey, yet he would like t=
o give it again. It is unclear what Brad hopes to gain since his surv=
ey doesn't even take my position into account. And this is&=
nbsp;they very argument that Brad cannot hear=
: using the past perfect in a simple&nb=
sp;past construction can be optional.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Susan<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Aug 20, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Bruce Despain wrote:</DIV><BR class=3DApp=
le-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><SPAN style=3D"WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; T=
EXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium 'Comic Sans MS'; W=
HITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); =
WORD-SPACING: 0px" class=3DApple-style-span>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2>Brad, et al.</FONT></SPAN></DI=
V>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2>Sorry I missed the point. =
; Where did I go wrong? I thought the point was that =E2=80=9Chad sen=
t=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csent=E2=80=9D underlined were two options and that =
Dr. Kissinger had chosen the correct option. I also thought Brad want=
ed to point out that this author knew what he was doing when he made the ch=
oice. (I was also checking to see if my sentence with =E2=80=9Chad,=
=E2=80=9D which was syntactically equivalent, would pass muster.) I c=
annot for the world understand how numbers are going help the investigation=
. Is the investigator looking for an explanation for the phenomenon o=
r is the desire simply to prove that it exists and that there is a differen=
ce of opinion about its most appropriate analysis, which might eventually l=
ead to an explanation? I
believe there is ample evidence about the difference of opinion that exist=
s. I don=E2=80=99t understand the importance of discovering that a pa=
rticular individual has a particular opinion about the difference. Do=
es the investigator want to make sure he is in the =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D =
camp? Does he want to make sure a majority agrees with him? Doe=
s he want to find out if he is on a par with other English teachers? =
Does he need to prove that =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D English teachers have it =
all wrong? I am at a loss to know how one could build objectively on =
such detailed information to build a satisfying explanation for the phenome=
non. I think the grammatical choice is indeed socially conditioned, b=
ut then limiting the inquiry to English teachers does not seem appropriate.=
The social dynamics of language use is, I believe, much too overt an=
d self-conscious in that group. Journalists would also seem to be sel=
f-conscious with regard
to language use and yield biased data. It is probably a good thing t=
hat it is not easy to query them individually about their grammatical choic=
es. The numbers would tell more about the group queried than the gram=
matical phenomenon for which we seek an explanation. (I suppose it ca=
n also tell us a lot about the investigator.) If the social dynamics =
of grammatical choice is what is being studied, I would think that the inve=
stigator would stay aloof and be careful not to become part of those dynami=
cs by insisting on one particular choice. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2>By the way, I agree that teach=
ing might well be improved by using terms more appropriate to our particula=
r understanding, just as Bill has suggested. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2>Bruce</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb=
(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-=
STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none=
; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; FONT-SIZ=
E: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; FO=
NT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Assembly fo=
r the Teaching of English Grammar [<A href=3D"http://us.mc365.mail.yahoo.co=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>=
mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space>&nb=
sp;</SPAN><B>On Behalf Of<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><=
/B>Brad Johnston<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> <=
/SPAN>Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:19 AM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-co=
nverted-space> </SPAN><A href=3D"http://us.mc365.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>ATEG@LIS=
TSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space>=
</SPAN>Re: Still
Doing It Right</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2>You missed the point but that's O.K. I know =
what to expect from you. What I don't know, and you don't know either, is w=
hat the rest of the 300+ teachers on the list think about the subject at ha=
nd, (or any subject), which you missed but they may well not have missed. I=
hear from them from time to time, off list, but most of them will not put =
up with what you ladle out, as below.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2>I wish I could ask them specific questions<S=
PAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>en masse</EM><SPAN class=
=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>and get them to reply<SPAN class=
=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>individually</EM>, off list, so t=
hey can be counted but I haven't yet found a way to do it. You want to argu=
e but I still want to count heads. The only head count I was able to g=
et came out 60-40, which certainly indicates a difference of opinion, =
but I have not yet found a way to build on it. </FONT></DIV></DIV=
>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2>.brad.20aug09.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><FONT size=3D2>--- On<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-spac=
e> </SPAN><B>Wed, 8/19/09, Bruce Despain<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-=
space> </SPAN><I><<A href=3D"http://us.mc365.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>Despain=
[log in to unmask]</A>></I></B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space>&nbs=
p;</SPAN>wrote:</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255)=
1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; MARGIN-TOP: 5p=
t; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; MARGIN-BO=
TTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FO=
NT-SIZE: 12pt" class=3DMsoNormal><BR><FONT size=3D2>From: Bruce Despain <=
;</FONT><A href=3D"http://us.mc365.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DDespainBD=
@FAMILYSEARCH.ORG" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank><FONT size=3D2>DespainBD@=
FAMILYSEARCH.ORG</FONT></A><FONT size=3D2>><BR>Subject: Re: Still Doing =
It Right<BR>To: </FONT><A href=3D"http://us.mc365.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank><FONT size=
=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D2>Date: Wednesday,=
August 19, 2009, 8:06 PM</FONT>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1796461258>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: blac=
k"><FONT size=3D2>Brad, </FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif"><FONT size=
=3D2>I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know=
certain speakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kis=
singer intends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how many=
times they may be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfec=
t form in such a context, they must always prescriptively praise their=
own dialect as the only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly as=
he seems to be communicating with this form the same way I would make the =
attempt. For many months, this listserve was sustained by over 3=
00 interested English teachers. Their appetite for a healthy dis=
cussion of relevant issues had made it a good resource of information and p=
edagogical strategies, which you have no doubt also
enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be trac=
ed to certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that do not go=
away, but are maintained as the only correct versions. </FONT></SPAN>=
</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, sans-serif"><FONT size=
=3D2>Bruce</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=3DdivRpF516364>
<DIV style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter><FONT =
size=3D2>
<HR align=3Dcenter SIZE=3D2 width=3D"100%">
</FONT></DIV>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; FO=
NT-SIZE: 12pt" class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, san=
s-serif"><FONT size=3D2>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma, sans-serif"><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space>&nbs=
p;</SPAN>Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [</FONT><A href=3D"ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]" rel=
=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank><FONT size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT><=
/A><FONT size=3D2>] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [</FONT><A href=3D"http://us=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow =
target=3D_blank><FONT size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></A><FONT size=3D=
2>]<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>Wednesd=
ay, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-spac=
e> </SPAN></FONT><A href=3D"http://us.mc365.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
[log in to unmask]"
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank><FONT size=3D2>[log in to unmask]</FO=
NT></A><BR><FONT size=3D2><B>Subject:</B><SPAN class=3DApple-converted-spac=
e> </SPAN>Still Doing It Right</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry K=
issinger, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.</SPAN>=
</STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if=
no one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enoug=
h for me to show her that lots of people do it right, including Henry,=
who is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.</SPAN></=
STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Rebalancing Relatio=
ns With China</SPAN></STRONG><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><STRONG=
>.</STRONG></SPAN></B></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">By<SPAN class=3DApple-conve=
rted-space> </SPAN><STRONG>Henry A. Kissinger,<SPAN class=3DApple-conv=
erted-space> </SPAN></STRONG>Wednesday, August 19, 2009<SPAN class=3DA=
pple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For several decades, the gl=
obal economic system was sustained by acceptance of American predominance. =
A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's appetite for consumer goods=
<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(=
192,0,0)">(</SPAN><STRONG>had sent</STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,=
0)">) <STRONG><U>sent</U></STRONG></SPAN><SPAN class=3DApple-converted=
-space> </SPAN>enormous amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, C=
hina lent back to us for still more buying.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in=
the whole article.</SPAN></STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.</SP=
AN></STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.</SPAN></STRONG></DI=
V></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><STRONG><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(192,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">.brad.19aug09. </SPAN></STRONG></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY><=
/TABLE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE:=
10pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV><=
/DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A
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--0-1307975756-1250820056=:9891--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:28:04 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Southern sounds ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009
(#2009-178)
I beg your pardon. My father was reared in small-town FL Panhandle,
my mother in a farm in central MS. I was taught by example and correction
that pen and pin were not pronounced as homophones. I rather believe that
my parents and I should be considered Southerners; the old joke was "I was
21 before I learned that you did not spell Yankee with a little 'd.'
Yes, I have held on to my Southern accent and vocabulary although I remain
cognizant of the five clocks.
Yes, 'peen' is part of ball peen hammer to me and I have heard the slight
schwa after 'pen' but not after 'pin.' As a phonetician, I always had an
ear for dialectal speech--and used the IPA to record my youngest daughter's
speech for the first two years. After that, I heard nothing unusual.
My phonetic problem as a youth was the textbook explanation that the sound
was that of singer--not finger--which had exactly the same end sound to me.
My folks could not help me on that one.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:16:02 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: fonetik
My inland-Southern native dialect uses something like "pea-yun" (out of
context, it would be hard to distinguish from the inland Southern
present participle of a colloquial verb referring to urination). I have
seen phonics texts for early elementary ed that use "pen" as the primary
example word for "short e" -- an example which won't be at all useful
for any Southerner.=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: fonetik
At 02:13 p.m. 18/08/2009, Edmond Wright wrote:
> > The trouble with 'fonetik' spelling is, of course, is indicated=20
> by what Seth
>Katz says about the Southerner's 'peen' for 'pen', for the result=20
>would be that
>everyone would write their own accent.
DD: All the Suthroners around me think a peen is part of a ball peen=20
hammer, or the using of it. Pen is pronounced pen-uh. The 'e' is=20
close to the sound of 'Eh?" The n is not unusual for all of us=20
English speakers, but the suffix 'uh' is. I am not sure, but I think=20
we add it to all words ending in a consonant. Just thought of that.=20
We do tend to stick a lot of schwas in where they are just word=20
extenders. It is sort of like we were getting paid by the syllables=20
and not the words.=20
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-----------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:28:54 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Still Doing It Right
--0-1993007779-1250720934=:49699
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by=A0Henry Kissin=
ger, in which=A0there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
=A0
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if n=
o one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough =
for me to show=A0her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who =
is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
=A0
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009=20
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance=
of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods (had sent)=A0sent enormous amounts of dollars t=
o China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more buying.
=A0
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent=A0-- in the =
whole article.=20
=A0
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.
=A0
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
=A0
.brad.19aug09.=A0=0A=0A=0A
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at:
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--0-1993007779-1250720934=:49699
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>There is a=
905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry Kissinger, in=
which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.</FONT></STRONG></D=
IV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>Nonetheless, it provides further evidenc=
e to refute Susan's claim that if no one does it right, it must be wrong. S=
he did not stay around long enough for me to show her that lots of peo=
ple do it right, including Henry, who is, by any standard, a wonderful mani=
pulator of our language.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D3>Rebalancing Relations With China<BR>.</FONT></S=
TRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D-1>By <STRONG>Henry A. Kissinger, </STRONG>Wednesday, Aug=
ust 19, 2009 <BR>.</DIV></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV>For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by accep=
tance of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with Ameri=
ca's appetite for consumer goods <FONT color=3D#c00000>(</FONT><STRONG>had =
sent</STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>) <STRONG><U>sent</U></STRONG></FON=
T> enormous amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent back to=
us for still more buying.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>That's the only 'had' there is -- right,=
wrong, or indifferent -- in the whole article. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lot=
s of people do it right.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>It should be taught the right way, not t=
he wrong way.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#c00000>.brad.19aug09. </FONT></STRONG></DI=
V></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A
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<p>
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--0-1993007779-1250720934=:49699--
-----------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:06:41 -0600
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1374A78784C3AMBX01ldschurc_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brad,
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know certain s=
peakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger int=
ends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how many times they may=
be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect form in such =
a context, they must always prescriptively praise their own dialect as the =
only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be communica=
ting with this form the same way I would make the attempt. For many months=
, this listserve was sustained by over 300 interested English teachers. Th=
eir appetite for a healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good=
resource of information and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doub=
t also enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be traced t=
o certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that do not go awa=
y, but are maintained as the only correct versions.
Bruce
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry Kissinge=
r, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if n=
o one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough =
for me to show her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who is=
, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance=
of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods (had sent) sent enormous amounts of dollars to =
China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more buying.
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the wh=
ole article.
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
.brad.19aug09.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the =
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al=
l copies of the original message.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1374A78784C3AMBX01ldschurc_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html dir=3D"ltr"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta name=3D"GENERATOR" content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18812">
<style title=3D"owaParaStyle"><!--P {
MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
--></style>
</head>
<body ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">Brad,&n=
bsp; </font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"tahoma"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"tahoma">I don't know why I'm so s=
tupid to reply to your comments. I know certain speakers of English w=
ill not understand the point of view that Kissinger intends to comply with =
in his use of "had." No matter how many times
they may be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect form=
in such a context, they must always prescriptively praise their own d=
ialect as the only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly as he se=
ems to be communicating with this form the
same way I would make the attempt. For many months, this listse=
rve was sustained by over 300 interested English teachers. Their appe=
tite for a healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good re=
source of information and pedagogical strategies, which
you have no doubt also enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in=
readership can be traced to certain repetitive observations of dialect dif=
ferences that do not go away, but are maintained as the only correct versio=
ns.
</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"tahoma"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"tahoma">Bruce</font></div>
<div style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr" id=3D"divRpF516364">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Assembly for the Teaching of =
English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [brad=
[log in to unmask]]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Still Doing It Right<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000">There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in tod=
ay's paper, written by Henry Kissinger, in which there is a singl=
e 'had' and it is a blooper.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000">Nonetheless, it provides further evide=
nce to refute Susan's claim that if no one does it right, it must be wrong.=
She did not stay around long enough for me to show her that lots of p=
eople do it right, including Henry, who
is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.</font></stro=
ng></div>
<div><strong><font size=3D"3"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size=3D"3">Rebalancing Relations With China<br>
.</font></strong></div>
<div><font size=3D"-1">By <strong>Henry A. Kissinger, </strong>Wednesday, A=
ugust 19, 2009
<br>
.</div>
</font>
<div>
<div>For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by accep=
tance of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with Ameri=
ca's appetite for consumer goods
<font color=3D"#c00000">(</font><strong>had sent</strong><font color=3D"#c0=
0000">) <strong><u>sent</u></strong></font> enormous amounts of dollar=
s to China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more buying.</d=
iv>
<div> </div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000">That's the only 'had' there is -- righ=
t, wrong, or indifferent -- in the whole article.
</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000">Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. L=
ots of people do it right.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000">It should be taught the right way, not=
the wrong way.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font color=3D"#c00000">.brad.19aug09. </font></strong></=
div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave the list"
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</p>
</div>
<DIV>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt';font-family:'"Helvetic=
a","Tahoma","Arial","sans-serif"'><font color=3D"#666666"><br><br> NOTICE: =
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may=
contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, =
use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies =
of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</DIV></body>
</html>
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--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1374A78784C3AMBX01ldschurc_--
-----------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:24:24 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
Dear All:
I have hit upon what might be a modest proposal for ending the curse of =
the Past Perfect Fixation. Recall that the tense under discussion is =
also called the "pluperfect," and that, in fact, that is the more common =
name in older grammars. This provides a solution!
The tense need not be past. It must only be plu. Pluness (not to be =
confused with plurality) is a state that can be inferred from context, =
both textual and situational. Brad's sense of annoyance is a natural =
reaction to the fact that some dolt in the sixteenth century -- =
doubtless completely tanked on metheglyn, if not also forswunk at the =
time -- thought that "past" and "plu" were the same thing. No one likes =
false advertising.
That should settle everything nicely.
Bill Spruiell=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Bruce =
Despain
Sent: Wed 8/19/2009 8:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
=20
Brad,
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know =
certain speakers of English will not understand the point of view that =
Kissinger intends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how =
many times they may be told that there are dialects that accept the past =
perfect form in such a context, they must always prescriptively praise =
their own dialect as the only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly =
as he seems to be communicating with this form the same way I would make =
the attempt. For many months, this listserve was sustained by over 300 =
interested English teachers. Their appetite for a healthy discussion of =
relevant issues had made it a good resource of information and =
pedagogical strategies, which you have no doubt also enjoyed. Perhaps =
the current downturn in readership can be traced to certain repetitive =
observations of dialect differences that do not go away, but are =
maintained as the only correct versions.
Bruce
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston =
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry =
Kissinger, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that =
if no one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long =
enough for me to show her that lots of people do it right, including =
Henry, who is, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by =
acceptance of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled =
with America's appetite for consumer goods (had sent) sent enormous =
amounts of dollars to China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for =
still more buying.
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the =
whole article.
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
.brad.19aug09.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended =
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. =
Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. =
If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by =
reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
-----------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:32:23 -0400
From: "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
See, if Brad had never obsessed about "had," I might never have learned the=
word "forswunk." Everything happens for a reason.
Brian
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
Dear All:
I have hit upon what might be a modest proposal for ending the curse of the=
Past Perfect Fixation. Recall that the tense under discussion is also call=
ed the "pluperfect," and that, in fact, that is the more common name in old=
er grammars. This provides a solution!
The tense need not be past. It must only be plu. Pluness (not to be confuse=
d with plurality) is a state that can be inferred from context, both textua=
l and situational. Brad's sense of annoyance is a natural reaction to the f=
act that some dolt in the sixteenth century -- doubtless completely tanked =
on metheglyn, if not also forswunk at the time -- thought that "past" and "=
plu" were the same thing. No one likes false advertising.
That should settle everything nicely.
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Bruce Despa=
in
Sent: Wed 8/19/2009 8:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Still Doing It Right
Brad,
I don't know why I'm so stupid to reply to your comments. I know certain s=
peakers of English will not understand the point of view that Kissinger int=
ends to comply with in his use of "had." No matter how many times they may=
be told that there are dialects that accept the past perfect form in such =
a context, they must always prescriptively praise their own dialect as the =
only correct one. I understood Henry perfectly as he seems to be communica=
ting with this form the same way I would make the attempt. For many months=
, this listserve was sustained by over 300 interested English teachers. Th=
eir appetite for a healthy discussion of relevant issues had made it a good=
resource of information and pedagogical strategies, which you have no doub=
t also enjoyed. Perhaps the current downturn in readership can be traced t=
o certain repetitive observations of dialect differences that do not go awa=
y, but are maintained as the only correct versions.
Bruce
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Still Doing It Right
There is a 905-word Op-Ed piece in today's paper, written by Henry Kissinge=
r, in which there is a single 'had' and it is a blooper.
Nonetheless, it provides further evidence to refute Susan's claim that if n=
o one does it right, it must be wrong. She did not stay around long enough =
for me to show her that lots of people do it right, including Henry, who is=
, by any standard, a wonderful manipulator of our language.
Rebalancing Relations With China
.
By Henry A. Kissinger, Wednesday, August 19, 2009
.
For several decades, the global economic system was sustained by acceptance=
of American predominance. A vast tide of liquidity coupled with America's =
appetite for consumer goods (had sent) sent enormous amounts of dollars to =
China, which, in turn, China lent back to us for still more buying.
That's the only 'had' there is -- right, wrong, or indifferent -- in the wh=
ole article.
Some people, sometimes, do it wrong. Lots of people do it right.
It should be taught the right way, not the wrong way.
.brad.19aug09.
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:14:09 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: fonetik
A nice example of the Southern Vowel Shift, as described at http://www.ic.a=
rizona.edu/~lsp/Features/SVS.html. What's interesting is how the Northern =
Cities Vowel Shift (http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Northeast/ncshift/ncshif=
t.html) and the Southern Vowel Shift are taking the regional vowel systems =
in very different directions. Contrary to popular belief, dialects are not=
disappearing and are, in fact, diverging further, as one would expect.
Herb
Subject: Re: fonetik
My inland-Southern native dialect uses something like "pea-yun" (out of
context, it would be hard to distinguish from the inland Southern
present participle of a colloquial verb referring to urination). I have
seen phonics texts for early elementary ed that use "pen" as the primary
example word for "short e" -- an example which won't be at all useful
for any Southerner.=20
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 7:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: fonetik
At 02:13 p.m. 18/08/2009, Edmond Wright wrote:
> > The trouble with 'fonetik' spelling is, of course, is indicated=20
> by what Seth
>Katz says about the Southerner's 'peen' for 'pen', for the result=20
>would be that
>everyone would write their own accent.
DD: All the Suthroners around me think a peen is part of a ball peen=20
hammer, or the using of it. Pen is pronounced pen-uh. The 'e' is=20
close to the sound of 'Eh?" The n is not unusual for all of us=20
English speakers, but the suffix 'uh' is. I am not sure, but I think=20
we add it to all words ending in a consonant. Just thought of that.=20
We do tend to stick a lot of schwas in where they are just word=20
extenders. It is sort of like we were getting paid by the syllables=20
and not the words.=20
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:23:04 -0500
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: forswunk
DD: And I always thought it was spelled, forswonk.
from swink,verb (used without object),swank or swonk, swonken,
swinking, to toil
probably a past participle form
bef. 900; ME swinken, OE swincan;
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End of ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2009 to 19 Aug 2009 (#2009-178)
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End of ATEG Digest - 19 Aug 2009 to 20 Aug 2009 (#2009-179)
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