I've been thinking about my preference for R-K diagrams as I have been
following this thread.  To me a critical fact is that a tree diagram, as
I understand it, end ups up with the orginal sentence in unaltered word
order.  As I see it, this reinforces a basic misconception in
typical students' minds, i.e., that there is really no difference between
what they think of as natural word order and grammatical function.  Thus
to call a word a subject is often for young students just a pretentious
way of saying that it comes first.  I think that the RK diagrams perform
an important function by breaking up sentences and reassembling
them according to their syntactic relationships.  It makes the point
dramatically that there is a difference between word order and
grammar.  This goes a little beyond what I said in my book.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Paul E. Doniger wrote:

> Christine,
>
> In his new book, _The War Against Grammar_, David Mulroy deals with your
> question (in chapter four); his clear preference is R-K, but he treats both
> with respect and gives clear reasons for his preference.
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christine Gray" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: Reed-Kellogg diagrams
>
>
> For the past six years, I've used and taught (and had my students at the
> board practicing) rk diagramming in my grammar course at a community
> college.
>
> Diagrams-especially rk diagrams-make visible the abstract-ness/abstraction
> of language.
>
> Some students just never "get" diagramming; others, however, enjoy it,
> thinking of it as a game or puzzle.
>
> On student evaluations, many students write that diagramming was one of the
> most useful activities in the class.
>
> I prefer rk over tree diagrams, which are, I think, the type preferred by
> several people on this list.
>
> But, tell me, does a tree diagram give a better visual of a sentence's
> structure?  I don't think it does.
>
> I am interested in hearing why some instructors prefer tree diagrams over rk
> diagrams.
>
> Christine in Baltimore
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:18 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Reed-Kellogg diagrams
>
> In a recent posting I mentioned Mark Lester's Grammar in the Classroom.  I
> find it in many ways a fine text, but I haven't used it in my UG grammar
> classes because of its heavy use of Reed-Kellogg diagrams.  But my
> hesitation may be unfounded; hence my question.  What is the role of
> Reed-Kellogg diagrams in contemporary K12 grammar teaching.  I've looked at
> various language arts series, and some of them use   R-K to varying extents.
> I've occasionally used them in my classes for their ability to represent
> certain types of grammatical function, something that phrase structure trees
> do only tangentially, unless you code function into node labels like Max
> Morenberg does in Doing Grammar.  R-K diagrams are weak on structure, and
> they aren't consistently reliable on function, but they do represent a
> respectable tradition of grammar teaching, and I know they have some level
> of support.  Do K12 language arts teachers need to be familiar with R-K?
> Should they be covered in a UG grammar course for developing language arts
> teachers?
>
> Herb
>
>
>
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