Many thanks to all! I'm off to amazon.com for a look at these helpful guides.
Julie
>>> "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]> 07/28/10 4:09 PM >>>
Dan - I figured that from your comments, but since it appeared that Julie might be new to the list, and perhaps to the issues, I didn't want her to come away from Hartwell without showing the other side. You might want to have a look at that poetry book - their chapter on grammar is quite interesting.
Geoff Layton
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:49:16 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: question about negative contractions
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Geoff:
>
> I would just like to clarify that I am not endorsing (or opposing)
> Hartwell's position on the place of grammar in the teaching of
> writing. I just think that the distinctions he draws about different
> senses of the term "grammar" are so crucial, and they are independent
> of the rest of his argument.
>
> The work of Kolln is quite good as well.
>
> --Dan
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Julie -
> >
> > You might also want to check out the "anti-Hartwell" position, namely the
> > one taken by Martha Kolln in either (or both!) of her two major works:
> > "Rhetorical Grammar" or her "Understanding English Grammar." The problem
> > with Hartwell is that he vehementally opposes teaching of grammar, taking a
> > stand that grammar instruction may actually inhibit development of good
> > writing.
> >
> > As a creative writing teacher, you may appreciate "The Poet's Companion: A
> > Guide to the Pleasures of Writing Poetry." I use this book frequently to
> > support the idea that from my perspective, the goal is not to teach "grammar
> > in the context of writing," but rather to teach "writing in the context of
> > grammar." Authors Kim Addoniziio and Dorianne Laux include a chapter on "A
> > Grammatical Excursion," in which they make this remarkable claim: "Grammar
> > can be a door to rooms you might never otherwise discover, a way to realize
> > and articulate your visions in language. Adding an appositive or a noun
> > phrase can make the scene come alive" (171). Showing how a appositives and
> > noun phrases can greatly enhance the power of a poem provides an example of
> > how grammar creates meaning - in this case one of the "six parts of
> > meaning," "who" meaning.
> >
> >
> > Geoff Layton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:10:33 -0700
> >> From: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: question about negative contractions
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>
> >> Julie:
> >>
> >> You might want to check out Patrick Hartwell's article "Grammar,
> >> Grammars, and the Teaching of Grammar". It's written for writing
> >> teachers, and it deals with the different senses of the term
> >> "grammar".
> >>
> >> As for textbook grammars, there are too many of these to list. Just
> >> look in any writing handbook. These tend to focus only on written
> >> language and they deal with some combination of the following: the
> >> correction of errors, ESL issues, issues of formality, the
> >> idiosyncrasies of usage and punctuation. These tend to be simplified
> >> in part for pedagogical purposes, and they don't address the issues of
> >> the English language that most of us master without instruction (i.e.
> >> they don't have to say "put the article before the noun").
> >>
> >> In terms of a descriptive/empirical grammar (what you call a
> >> professional reference grammar), I would recommend the works of
> >> Huddleston and Pullum. Their "Cambridge Grammar of the English
> >> Language" is quite long and technical, and might be a little
> >> off-putting, but it is incredibly thorough. They have a simplified
> >> version of it in "A Student's Introduction to English Grammar," which
> >> might be a better starting point.
> >>
> >> --Dan Roth
> >> Contra Costa College
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Julie Nichols <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> > I'm interested in John's reference to "a 'real' English grammar," and
> >> > the difference between textbook grammars and professional reference
> >> > grammars. Could you point me to titles/authors of each? (Remember, I'm
> >> > fairly new to the list and neither a linguist nor a grammarian--"just" a
> >> > creative writing prof with lit background who's a little obsessed w/good
> >> > sentence-making. Speaking of which, in the "Great Courses" catalog
> >> > (audio/video lecture series not associated with any one university), there's
> >> > a "Building Great Sentences" series of lectures taught by Brooks Landing of
> >> > the U of Iowa. Looks rich. Anybody know anything about it?)
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Julie
> >> >
> >> > Julie J. Nichols, Ph.D.
> >> > Associate Professor
> >> > Department of English and Literature
> >> > Utah Valley University MS 153
> >> > 800 West University Parkway
> >> > Orem UT 84058
> >> > 801-863-6795
> >> >>>> "John Dews-Alexander" <[log in to unmask]> 07/28/10 2:43 PM >>>
> >> > I agree with Dan that this is a feature of English that seems to be
> >> > acquired
> >> > by all native speakers without explicit instruction. ...
> >> > For the budding language nerds in the class though (I remember being
> >> > one!),
> >> > it may not satisfy. They might be more delighted with an introduction to
> >> > a
> >> > "real" English grammar (I don't mean to be disparaging, but I think we
> >> > can
> >> > mostly agree that there is a big difference between textbook grammars
> >> > and
> >> > professional reference grammars).
> >> >
> >> > ...
> >> > John
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Dan Roth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Anthony:
> >> >>
> >> >> You are dealing with the issue of subject-auxiliary inversion. From a
> >> >> purely empirical perspective, it is grammatical to invert the subject
> >> >> and the leftmost auxiliary verb to form certain types of question
> >> >> constructions, but I believe it is ungrammatical to invert the subject
> >> >> with anything else. This explains why you cannot invert the subject
> >> >> with the string "do not" (your second example)--it is more than just
> >> >> an auxiliary verb. If you treat an the contraction of auxiliary plus
> >> >> negation as a sub-type of auxiliary, then that predicts that you
> >> >> should be able to do inversion, which is the right prediction.
> >> >>
> >> >> The above describes the empirical facts, but it doesn't give a deeper
> >> >> rationale for "why". I'm not in a position to give a good reason why,
> >> >> beyond observing that it's just how English is. A lot of how the
> >> >> language functions is idiosyncratic. Why does the earth rotate one
> >> >> direction and not the other? That's just how it is, and it could
> >> >> easily have been otherwise.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not sure how much of what I've said will help your student. I
> >> >> think it might just overwhelm them--but I hope it at least helps you.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not sure how much you even need to explain though. I doubt it's
> >> >> common that any students make the error of inverting "do not" with a
> >> >> subject. I suspect that the principle that you can only invert a
> >> >> subject with a single auxiliary is principle of the English that is
> >> >> mastered very early by children.
> >> >>
> >> >> --Dan Roth
> >> >> Contra Costa College
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Anthony DeFazio <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Can someone explain, please, why we can say "Why don't you like her?"
> >> >> > but
> >> >> > not "Why do not you like her?" A student asked and I was at a loss
> >> >> > for an
> >> >> > explanation. Thank you, Tony DeFazio, LIU
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