> Bill,

   Add to that the tendency, in New York state at least, to concentrate on
"literary elements" in the study of literature, as if it were a strange
beast of its own and not the best uses of our common tongue.
   My most recent conversation with a student about "the grammar I learned
in public school" turned up "not to use contractions when I write."
   When people oppose grammar, the believe they are oppossing a priori
constraints on discourse, which they also sort of grudgingly go along
with, though in the hopes that it will somehow happen through exposure,
since most sane people would prefer not to correct other people all the
time.
   You can't get a reasonable discussion going because grammar is
synonymous with error in the public (and English teacher) mind.
   We need scope and sequence recommendations to at least be able to
demnonstrate an internally consistent alternative.

Craig

Omar, Craig, et al.:
>
> The problem may not be so much based on divorcing grammar from
> literature as it is divorcing grammar from *language* -- literature is a
> particularly important category of language-use that students encounter,
> although, of course, not the only one, or even the primary one in their
> daily lives. I've noticed two tendencies among my students that I find
> problematic, and that I try to counter (albeit with limited success):
>
> 1) They view "grammar" as a self-contained system having nothing to do
> with    anything except writing class papers.
>
> 2) They draw a very sharp distinction between "errors" (defined chiefly
> by their treatment in previous K-12 classes) and "improvables"; Craig's
> "dimmer switch" is not something they've encountered before. A brief
> example: They have no problem considering mistakes with "affect" vs.
> "effect" as errors, but they don't consider redundant ("free gift!") or
> misleading ("pre-owned vehicle") expressions as subject to the same kind
> of criticism.
>
> I suspect (2) is partly built on (1), in that the perceived insularity
> of grammar means that whatever logic is behind viewing something as an
> error is disconnected from considerations of audience and is not
> extended to other areas to which it would otherwise appear relevant.
>
> I *don't* want to expand the range of what students see as errors ("Oh
> look! Here are ten new categories of things to worry about all the
> time!"), but it would be nice if they had a way of thinking *about* what
> it means to call something an error.
>
> -- Bill Spruiell
>
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:45 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Linda to RMMedley"to scare"
>
> Omar,
>
>    Thanks for bringing to mind one of the most powerful of Woody's fine
> songs. It was written on the occassion of a plane crash that killed
> "deportees", migrant workers being shipped back to Mexico once the
> California harvest was over. It's a wonderful example of a deeply
> moving language structure built from the language of everyday life. As
> is so often the case with great literature, it deeply transcends its
> time.
>    I think you are misquoting the "Jabberwocky" poem slightly.
>    Our highest register poet might be Wallace Stevens, though he, too,
> was
> capable of wonderfully simple (yet deeply resonant) lines: "He is not
> here, the old sun/ As absent as if we were alseep."  Or "In this bleak
> air the broken stalks/ Have arms without hands."
>    Our ultimate genius might be Langston Hughes, who knew he was writing
> for a people often denied access to schools. "I've known rivers ancient
> as the world and older than the flow of human blood in human veins."
>    You're absolutely right. We need to point out how much work a simple
> language can do. Literature gives us the context. In the U.S., we have
> a wonderful literature built from the language of the people.
>
> Craig
>
>
>> Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>>   As a field, we should err on the side of inclusiveness and
>>>functionality. Lots of what you call "error" may very well be the
>>>places where meaning is undeveloped or confusing or lost or where the
>>>student has not yet become comfortable with the tools available to a
>>>writer. Knowledge about lanaguage is a useful adjunct to this. In a
>>>sense, error is what we do when we write, but I think the better
>>>writers tend to look at what is working and build from there.
>>>
>> Comfort with the tools of a writer is a matter of emerging language
>> maturity and this problem also dogs math teachers, in particular. To
>> develop this maturity we need to be  not only language creators but
> also
>> language consumers. When the study of grammar is divorced from that of
>> literature making these connections is not always obvious. We look for
>> examples of good grammar in good literature, and so our subjective
>> judgements of literature become tangled in prescriptive views of
>> grammar. Craig's comments reminded me of a line in the Woody Guthrie
>> song, "Deportee" -
>>
>> The sky-plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon.
>> A fireball of lightening that shook all our hills.
>> Who are these friends all scattered like dry leaves?
>> The radio said they were just deportees.
>>
>> This is creative on so many levels, I think it illustrates the
> argument
>> about inclusiveness and functionality and if we want an example of a
>> higher register, we still have,
>>
>> 'Come to my arms, by beamish boy! O frabjous day! Challooh! Challay!'
> He
>> chortled in his joy.
>>
>> Which could, of course, be improved by using "real words".
>>
>> This connectiveness why I particularly like Ed Vavra's work from wild
>> texts in his KISS grammar on-line. And for connected mathematics,
> there
>> is a series of materials called, Connected Mathematics, I think, that
> is
>> predictably controversial among K-12 math teachers. As an aside, I
> think
>> it's useful for teachers to be aware of how colleagues in other
> subject
>> areas are reacting to analagous problems.
>>
>> Omar
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
>> at:
>>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/