Geoff --
There are exceptions to the points you make about prepositional phrases,
although they are limited ones, and do not really obviate the claim
you're making. There are dialects of English that -- with specific verbs
-- don't use prepositions where an American English-speaker would expect
them. And to many people in Michigan, it's perfectly appropriate to say,
"Do you want to come with?" Granted, that probably started as a
Germanism, but I don't think that three generations later we can claim
that those speakers are still Germanating.
Closer to home (the grammar class), though, there are cases in which
whether to use a preposition or not is in flux. One example that has, I
believe, come up previously on this list is "graduate from high school"
vs. "graduate high school." To those of us careening towards geezerhood,
"graduate high school" sounds bizarre, as if someone is running around
the school building marking measurement lines on the walls, like on a
graduated beaker. Of course, it struck our ancestors as equally bizarre
when someone said "ask someone a question" instead of "ask a question of
someone."
Those kinds of shifts/differences are interesting (even, on good days,
to young people), but it's *nice* to have some terms like "preposition"
or "transitive" to let one discuss them as a coherent domain. In the
end, I think we're dealing with a situation that calls for balancing
whatever utility the terminology has against its potential fear or
boredom effect in a pedagogic context. Arguably, the utility of the
terminology is already established for scientific or professional
purposes, it's whether it does more harm or good in the classroom that's
the issue.
I think the terminology is valuable, and may be erring too far in giving
it weight in the balance; skipping it entirely, on the other hand, may
be going too far the other way. I would have escaped quadratic equations
entirely had my high-school math teacher been concerned with my dislike
of her subject material. And, like many proto-geezers, I can pontificate
ad nauseam on the need for Young People Nowadays to get used to the idea
that not everything has to be fun, or immediately utilitarian. I just
got finished going over phonology and the phonetic alphabet in my
college "pre-intro to linguistics course" only to have one of the
students say, "Is there....like....*jobs* for people just to spell
things wrong?"
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
Herb -
Here's my point about native speakers - every native speaker knows how
to
use prepositional phrases. No one would say "I put the glass the
table."
Similarly, everyone knows what an object of a preposition is. No one
would
say "I put the glass on." Therefore, I find it less than productive to
try
to teach prepositional phrases and their objects. Similarly, every
native
speaker knows how to use nouns, pronouns, adjectives, adverbs, and every
other part of speech.
Now your point is well taken - not very many people know how to use them
well. So while it may be useful - even critical - to teach anatomy and
physiology to the orthopod, it may not be worthwhile to try to teach
this
same information to the rehab patient. What the patient needs is an
orthopod who knows how to apply this information. And this is precisely
the
point I try to make every time we engage in discussions about "What to
do
with 'put'" type questions - fascinating as these might be to language
scholars, they are of not much use to high school students or college
freshman comp students (or other "rehab" patients). And it seems to me
that
since the interest of many on this list focuses on the communication
with
the patient rather than fellow doctors, our discussions should
occassionally
be re-directed to the patient in clinic rather than the technician in
the
lab. (WOW - YOU'RE RIGHT, TRYING TO MAINTAIN AND EXTEND THESE ANALOGIES
CAN
BE EXHAUSTING!)
So I believe that staying away from the terminology and sticking with
the
basic development of meaning actually helps the basic writer, voter, and
walker improve their chances of becoming better writers, voters, and
walkers.
Geoff
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
>Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:29:48 -0400
>
>Geoff,
>
>This argument, that every native speaker already knows the answer to
the
>question about different sentence types, mixes two very different forms
>of knowledge. I don't like arguing from analogy because all analogies
>ultimately fail, but I'll do it for a moment. Every human knows how to
>walk, but without some knowledge of anatomy and physiology it's hard to
>communicate clearly to an orthopod when something goes wrong with one's
>walking. Every citizen knows something about our system of government,
>but one of our problems is how little some citizens know about the
>functions of different branches, about the electoral process, about the
>Bill of Rights. That lack of knowledge sometimes prevent citizens from
>exercising and defending constitutional rights that no one can deprive
>them of. Knowledge about grammar and about language use is like these.
>A writer who can talk analytically about what's going on in her
>sentences has an advantage over the writer who works on the basis of
>less explicit knowledge. Certainly there are natural writers, just as
>there are those among us with a bent for grammatical analysis. We're
>not talking about those statistical fringes but about all those in the
>middle to whom such matters don't come naturally.
>
>Herb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
>Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:16 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
>
>Bill - I'm not sure that I agree. First of all, every native speaker
>already knows the answer to the question about the different sentence
>types.
> They probably don't know the terminology, but my contention is that
>knowing it doesn't help any.
>
>Second, the analogy is not between types of sentences and types of
>living
>things. Rather the analogy is between types of living things and types
>of
>meaning. So, for example, while the biologist asks about living
things,
>the
>grammarian asks about meaning. The biologist talks about the three
>parts of
>life (domains); the grammarian about the six parts of meaning
>(who-what-why-where-when-how). The biologist invesigates the Animalia
>Kingdom; the grammarian the world of "who." I won't try to complete
the
>
>analogy here, although it may be interesting to try - it's a good one
>that I
>think is worthwhile.
>
>Again, Bill, the difference between my approach and that taken by most
>of
>the population of this list is one that's defined by student
population.
>
>It's the difference between a class of advanced college and/or graduate
>language students and a class of high school students and/or first-year
>college composition students.
>
>Geoff
>
>
> >From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> ><[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
> >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 22:41:14 -0400
> >
> >Geoff --
> >
> >Even my college students are bored by the terminology (mirabile
>dictu!).
> >However, I think stepping back from the whole issue and asking a few
> >questions, such as "How many basic kinds of sentences are there?" and
> >"What are the really important differences and what are the trivial
> >ones?" may be a good tactic for a wide range of age groups, as long
as
> >one doesn't harp too much on labels, or insist there is a single
>correct
> >answer. It's parallel to what can happen even in low-level biology
> >classes when the teacher asks, "How many kinds of living things are
> >there? How could you even start to answer that question?" as a way of
> >approaching systems for classifying species (I have friends who are
>avid
> >bird-watchers, and who were horrified when they discovered that my
> >taxonomy for birds has, as top-level categories, "Goes with garlic
> >butter" and "Does not go with garlic butter").
> >
> >The important part is not really the "right labels" for things, it's
> >gaining an understanding of the ways scientists (or grammarians)
think
> >when they're faced with such a task. Since my course has objectives
>that
> >include "being able to work with traditional grammar labels," I'm
more
> >label-focused than is probably needed. -- Bill Spruiell
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
> >Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 11:31 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
> >
> >Before this interesting discussion runs out of steam, I wanted to add
>my
> >2
> >cents - specifically about how the interest level in this problem
>varies
> >
> >based on the student audience. To a class of undergrads or grad
> >students,
> >the terminology may be of interest. To high school students,
however,
> >this
> >entire discussion would be mind-numbing - except as it might
generally
> >relate to sentence development using "who-what-when-why-where-how"
> >constructions.
> >
> >To use the "Fastow was in the pen" example, I have my students
>construct
> >
> >sentences using "when" information first (based on using "old"
> >informtion
> >first) followed by the S-V and then "where" information.
> >
> >So the sentence would read, then, "After the scandal, Fastow was in
the
> >penitentiary." They would then be encouraged to add additional
"when"
> >and
> >"where" information, preferably using more varied construction,
> >including
> >dependent clauses, resulting in a sentence that might read like this:
> >"Last
> >month after the scandal while his co-defendants were still on trial,
> >Fastow
> >was in the penitentiary where he had been sent immediately after his
> >trial."
> >
> >Please note that the terminology of all of these constructions is of
> >minor
> >importance because all native speakers already know how to use each
and
> >every one of them. After developing sentences such as this, students
> >then
> >learn how to fill in the paragraph. For example, the old "when"
> >information
> >logically requires "who" "what" "why" and "how" explanations; the
> >"where"
> >requires additional descriptive and action information. And thus a
> >story is
> >developed using a variety of complex, logical sentences, taught with
> >almost
> >no "formal" grammar instruction whatsoever!
> >
> >Geoff Layton
> >
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> >
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>
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