Susan,

When you say that grammatical categories are inherently subjective,
perhaps you mean that the boundaries between them are blurred, so that
it's sometimes hard to know how to classify a word ("fun", for example)?

If you define categories as a cluster of properties (semantic,
morphological and syntactic), then you can explain that some words display
all of the characteristics of the category and are thus core members,
whereas other words display only some of them, and as such are more
peripheral members. Uncountable nouns, for example, are less prototypical
than countable nouns because they don't have a plural form. It's the same
in biology: penguins are birds even though they can't fly, and naked mole
rats are mammals even though they are cold-blooded.

Perhaps this is nothing new to you, but I am trying to explain why I don't
think grammatical categories are especially subjective.

Marie

PS: Your reference to "the awkward "he or she"" made me smile, because in
EFL, we TEACH our students to use "they" in these cases (tag questions:
Someone knocked, didn't they?)


> On Nov 17, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>>  It's the *denial* of subjectivity that inheres in the OctoDogma that's
>> the objectionable part.
>
> Yes, grammar definitions are incredibly subjective.  That was my point
> about grammar being a soft science.  There is no objective reality out
> there to uncover.  We will fight forever about how to categorize.
>
> It is fine for adults who go on to study and teach grammar to contemplate
> the fight between the OctoDogmarians and, for fun, let's call the
> opposition the Octogenarians.  I am going to place myself squarely with
> the OctoDogmarians when I am in my classroom (but you should know that my
> heart is with the older, smarter crowd).  We OctoDogmarians know there
> aren't 8, but we teach it to young people because it is practical, and
> your warning that it is damaging to teach it because it's a kludge is
> rather circular.  Why is it clumsy and inelegant?  If we don't teach the
> Eight, what would you have us teach?  How much theory do we want to throw
> at students?
>
>> There's no real logic to saying that the distinction between "modifies
>> noun" and "modifies verb" is more important than the distinction between
>> "modifies verb" and, say,  "modifies whole sentence."
>
> No, the logic is not on the side of this soft science we call grammar.  I
> don't like some of the dumb stuff I have to teach, such as how to get
> around the awkward "he or she."  And the reason we need a category that
> distinguishes between "modifies noun" and "modifies verb" is so I can
> explain to my students why they shouldn't tell a prospective employer that
> "they did really good in school."  If you could wave a magic grammar wand
> and remove the OctoDogma of the educated class, do it.  Until you get
> around to that, I need definitions that will make sense to my students
> without bogging them down in theory.  I do love your color-coded idea for
> the younger grades, but at some point we have to branch out to explain
> some of the Latin-forced stupidity that is the snobbery with which we
> live.
>
>> As it's implemented in K-12, the OctoDogma prevents teachers, and
>> students, from *thinking* about language.
>
> Yes, I agree.  But some other trendy people all point to studies that say
> grammar study doesn't improve writing.  So any grammar we can sneak into
> the curriculum must be simple, simple, simple because we don't have much
> time and little is reinforced from year to year.
>
>> What I can't take is a response that boils down to "I don't care what
>> you say, I'm going to say my taxonomy is better than anything else and I
>> don't have to have reasons." What I actually hear most often goes past
>> that and straight to "N'uh-uh. I'm right."
>
> I agree.  I dislike those who shut down debate and will not defend their
> positions.  But that is exactly what I have felt from some people (not
> you) on this list.  What I head most often is putdowns meant to silence,
> such as  "What a naive argument!" "I have no idea what your background is,
> but you need to have a wider...bla bla bla. I will now spew names of
> famous people I have read in an attempt to shut you up."
>
> Thank you for a great post.
>
> Susan
>
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