Geoff,
This argument, that every native speaker already knows the answer to the
question about different sentence types, mixes two very different forms
of knowledge. I don't like arguing from analogy because all analogies
ultimately fail, but I'll do it for a moment. Every human knows how to
walk, but without some knowledge of anatomy and physiology it's hard to
communicate clearly to an orthopod when something goes wrong with one's
walking. Every citizen knows something about our system of government,
but one of our problems is how little some citizens know about the
functions of different branches, about the electoral process, about the
Bill of Rights. That lack of knowledge sometimes prevent citizens from
exercising and defending constitutional rights that no one can deprive
them of. Knowledge about grammar and about language use is like these.
A writer who can talk analytically about what's going on in her
sentences has an advantage over the writer who works on the basis of
less explicit knowledge. Certainly there are natural writers, just as
there are those among us with a bent for grammatical analysis. We're
not talking about those statistical fringes but about all those in the
middle to whom such matters don't come naturally.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
Bill - I'm not sure that I agree. First of all, every native speaker
already knows the answer to the question about the different sentence
types.
They probably don't know the terminology, but my contention is that
knowing it doesn't help any.
Second, the analogy is not between types of sentences and types of
living
things. Rather the analogy is between types of living things and types
of
meaning. So, for example, while the biologist asks about living things,
the
grammarian asks about meaning. The biologist talks about the three
parts of
life (domains); the grammarian about the six parts of meaning
(who-what-why-where-when-how). The biologist invesigates the Animalia
Kingdom; the grammarian the world of "who." I won't try to complete the
analogy here, although it may be interesting to try - it's a good one
that I
think is worthwhile.
Again, Bill, the difference between my approach and that taken by most
of
the population of this list is one that's defined by student population.
It's the difference between a class of advanced college and/or graduate
language students and a class of high school students and/or first-year
college composition students.
Geoff
>From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 22:41:14 -0400
>
>Geoff --
>
>Even my college students are bored by the terminology (mirabile
dictu!).
>However, I think stepping back from the whole issue and asking a few
>questions, such as "How many basic kinds of sentences are there?" and
>"What are the really important differences and what are the trivial
>ones?" may be a good tactic for a wide range of age groups, as long as
>one doesn't harp too much on labels, or insist there is a single
correct
>answer. It's parallel to what can happen even in low-level biology
>classes when the teacher asks, "How many kinds of living things are
>there? How could you even start to answer that question?" as a way of
>approaching systems for classifying species (I have friends who are
avid
>bird-watchers, and who were horrified when they discovered that my
>taxonomy for birds has, as top-level categories, "Goes with garlic
>butter" and "Does not go with garlic butter").
>
>The important part is not really the "right labels" for things, it's
>gaining an understanding of the ways scientists (or grammarians) think
>when they're faced with such a task. Since my course has objectives
that
>include "being able to work with traditional grammar labels," I'm more
>label-focused than is probably needed. -- Bill Spruiell
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
>Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 11:31 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: What to do with 'put' [PPs following linking verbs]
>
>Before this interesting discussion runs out of steam, I wanted to add
my
>2
>cents - specifically about how the interest level in this problem
varies
>
>based on the student audience. To a class of undergrads or grad
>students,
>the terminology may be of interest. To high school students, however,
>this
>entire discussion would be mind-numbing - except as it might generally
>relate to sentence development using "who-what-when-why-where-how"
>constructions.
>
>To use the "Fastow was in the pen" example, I have my students
construct
>
>sentences using "when" information first (based on using "old"
>informtion
>first) followed by the S-V and then "where" information.
>
>So the sentence would read, then, "After the scandal, Fastow was in the
>penitentiary." They would then be encouraged to add additional "when"
>and
>"where" information, preferably using more varied construction,
>including
>dependent clauses, resulting in a sentence that might read like this:
>"Last
>month after the scandal while his co-defendants were still on trial,
>Fastow
>was in the penitentiary where he had been sent immediately after his
>trial."
>
>Please note that the terminology of all of these constructions is of
>minor
>importance because all native speakers already know how to use each and
>every one of them. After developing sentences such as this, students
>then
>learn how to fill in the paragraph. For example, the old "when"
>information
>logically requires "who" "what" "why" and "how" explanations; the
>"where"
>requires additional descriptive and action information. And thus a
>story is
>developed using a variety of complex, logical sentences, taught with
>almost
>no "formal" grammar instruction whatsoever!
>
>Geoff Layton
>
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