Judy misses the point. She wants to claim the research reports are valid and claims that we all know what reports she is talking about. Sorry, Judy. We need specifics. O'Hare's study has been discredited, as has Mellon's, etc., etc. etc. You're begging the question.
Ed V.

>>> Judy Diamondstone <[log in to unmask]> 01/06 2:24 PM >>>
No time to catch up on email, but saw this last exchange & decided to put in
my 2 bits: Self-reports (anecdotal evidence) are far less reliable than
research evidence -- and despite the antipathy expressed for the researchers
who report it (authors of the influential studies are well enough known on
this list), the evidence doesn't disappear because you don't like it.

BTW, I also (briefly - 7th grade) diagrammed sentences and loved it. I was a
strong writer, however, because I grew up reading and writing, long before I
learned to diagram sentences. From all that I have read, I've the firm
suspicion that students who have not grown up immersed in standard (edited)
American English and literacy benefit the most from explicit instruction in
written language conventions (etiquette) and in how written (edited)
language works in different kinds of texts --
a statement that betrays my bias!

In my opinion, knowledge of language structure will not help ANY students to
write better UNLESS the teacher can SHOW (not tell) the links between
forms/functions/meanings -- Students don't need grammarians; they need
rhetoricians who know language (most likely to be ones whose view of
language is _functional_ (what language DOES) rather than merely formal.

My views are known by most folks here -- thought I'd put in a good word for
Mr. McCleary, who got jumped on. Everyone writes like they are so CERTAIN of
the TRUTH. Credibility will follow the reliable studies (those already done;
those yet to be done) that show what sort of language instruction does what,
with whom....

back to business at hand
Judith

At 01:48 PM 1/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I was going to challenge Bill, but Mr. Lunde has done it for me. Bill has
fallen into the habit of referring to "all the evidence" or "all the
research," but he has failed to mention anything specific. As Hirsch says in
The Schools We Need, these references to research have been repeated so
often that they are now believed simply because they have been repeated so
often.
>Ed V.
>
>>>> "Lunde, Peter" <[log in to unmask]> 01/06 1:24 PM >>>
>Amy,
>
>Mr. McCleary has been shooting down all responders who challenge his notion
>that "writing" and "grammar" are not connected. I am 56 years old. I come
>from a generation that was taught grammar from the first grade on. We
>diagrammed sentences, wrote essays, and broke those essays down into their
>parts of speech. This taught us the basic mechanics of language that clear
>away questions relating to proper part of speech usage and variation.
>
>Today it seems, anything that comes out of the mind of a student is termed
>"writing," or so it seems that McCleary wants it that way. He is entirely in
>another territory here, and that place is called expository or creative
>writing, something completely different from the mechanics of writing, of
>which grammar is an important part.
>
>My wife is from Russia. She speaks and writes English so fluently that I am
>amazed she wasn't born here. How is it, you might ask, that someone from
>Russia who can speak and write English so well, outperforms many people
>here?  In Russia, when students learn English, they learn grammar right next
>to the speaking part. And they learn it cold. She explained to me that
>without the grammar rules, she would not be able to speak and write so
>effectively.
>
>Does Mr. McCleary actually think that any great writer, like Lawrence or
>Conrad,  did not know their English grammar? That everyone is a born savant
>who instinctively writes? This is irresponsible claptrap and the product of
>university insulation from what is needed as opposed to the theory of what
>is needed. Stick to your guns and keep the grammar in. Try to bring
>diagramming back in, it works and students will remember what it teaches.
>
>Pete Lunde
>Technical Publications  RSM
>BMC Software  2100 City West  Houston TX  77042
>(713) 918-7321
>


Judith Diamondstone  (732) 932-7496  Ext. 352
Graduate School of Education
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
10 Seminary Place
New Brunswick, NJ 08901-1183