>The grammar discussion has been fascinating – and almost
>overwhelming because so many valuable responses have been
>posted.   I am having a hard time keeping all the insights in
>mind.  As I struggle to sort it all out, I wonder if we could
>begin with what we want students to be able to do.  This sounds,
>I know, embarrassingly simplistic, but it would give us a place
>to begin.  For me the question is: What do students need to know
>to write effectively?  Once we find common ground there, the next
>question might be: How do we teach that?

As a preliminary to answering these questions, let's remember that the word
"grammar" has several meanings. Some use it to mean schoolboook syntax,
others usage/mechanics, others scientific syntax (a branch of linguistics)
and so forth. It would really help if everyone would specific which meaning
is being referred to. In the above, it sounds like Pam means
usage/mechanics (i.e., correctness).

Probably the answer to the question of "What do students need to know to
write effectively?" is that they don't NEED to know anything explicit about
grammar
 (meaning syntax, either schoolbook or scientific) to write effectively.
(They know a great deal implicitly, or they wouldn't be able to write at
all.) It's hard to explain certain constructions to students without using
grammatical terminology, but since students seldom know any terminology, we
either explain our points in some other way or not at all.

As to the issue of mechanics/correctness, we could again say that it's hard
to explain certain problems without using grammatical terminology, but we
get by. For instance, I usually have had no trouble explaining
pronoun/antecedent agreement without using grammatical terminology such as
pronoun and antecedent. It was only when I tried using a handbook, which
gave rules in grammatical terminology, that I ran into problems.

In the end, if the sole justification for teaching grammar
(linguistics/syntax) is to improve students' writing, then returning
grammar to the curriculum is a lost cause. As Ed has said several times, we
need to justify it as a liberal art that has many uses (such as the ability
to understand language issues).

Bill




William J. McCleary
3247 Bronson Hill Road
Livonia, NY 14487
716-346-6859