Susan,

(a ) "You'd better beat it.

(b)  You can leave in a taxi.

(c)  If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff.

(d)  If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff."

You are right, the first "huff," (c) is not a pun. However, I
suggested that only"[t]he second huff is pure paranomasia, the first
more of a ploce." Moreover, I still think that
sentence (c) is an isocolon, even without (d); but together, they are
an isocolon, as well: "Phrases of approximately equal length and
corresponding structure" (Lanham 93).

Diane

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> (c) I don't see this huff as a pun.  A pun requires one word with two
> definitions.  There is no actual definition of huff as a mode of
> transportation.  So it can't be a pun.
> (d) The pun is with huff/half. Paronomasia is a type of pun.
> Isocolon can be ruled out because the only similar clauses are the ends of
> (c) and (d).  I think iscolon has to be tighter, like Mark Twain's "Climate
> is what we expect, weather is what we get."  But maybe not.  There's no
> reason it can't be zeugma and isocolon.
> I found an example of syncrisis:  "It isn't just a matter of faith.  It's a
> matter of science."  It's similar to zeugma but it's missing "the obvious
> shift in its significance."  Faith and science are often paired terms, but
> taxi and huff are never paired and gives us that jarring quality that makes
> us think twice.
> Paul said, "However, I think Groucho intended to focus the pun on the second
> sense, so then we need to read "minute and a huff" as a single idea (i.e.,
> Diane's paranomasia -- a pun upon the similar sounds between 'huff' and
> 'half'), which negates its being a zeugma."
> Why would the use of a pun negate the use of zeugma?  I think both are
> happening here.  (D) contains the same shift as in (c).  If leaving in a
> taxi v. leaving in a huff is zeugma why on earth isn't leaving in a minute
> and a half v. leaving in a minute and leaving in a huff not?
> Susan
> On Jul 19, 2008, at 5:49 PM, diane skinner wrote:
>
> Some argue that this Groucho Marx statement is an example of zeugma or
> even a double zeugma with a pun:
> (a ) "You'd better beat it.
> (b)  You can leave in a taxi.
> (c)  If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff.
> (d)  If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff."
> Hmmmm. I assume that (c) and (d) are the phrase at issue.
> Using Lanham as a reference, I offer this:
> Pun, certainly, forcing us to think of a huff as a physical
> conveyance.  Zeugma, maybe, or maybe just isocolon (or syncrisis?).
> Zeugma is usually with the second term implied, as in "You can leave
> in a taxi or [leave] in a huff.  The second huff is pure paranomasia,
> the first more of a ploce.
> Diane
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
>
> The essence of zeugma is not ellipsis but a jarring forced parallelism. The
> "word(s) to modify or govern two or more words" in Groucho's lines is "can
> leave." He repeats it three times, with different prepositional phrases that
> he treats as semantically parallel when we clearly see they are not.
>
>
> Are you saying that zeugma is a merely formal structure, centered around
> ellipsis? If so, are you really saying that if Groucho had said, "You can
> leave in a taxi, or in a huff, or in a minute and a huff" (which wouldn't
> have been as funny), that would be zeugma, but because he repeated the verb
> structure, it isn't? You are right that "Miss Bolo went home in a flood of
> tears and went home in a sedan chair" is not zeugma—but only because it
> loses the jarring forced parallelism, not because it isn't elliptical.
> However, if Dickens had written, "Rather than leave in a flood of tears, she
> left in a sedan chair," that would have been zeugma.
>
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:12 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
>
>
> Susan,
>
>
> The Random House definition is pretty much what I've been saying -- indeed
> the example they provide gives support for it. In the great Groucho
> quotation (and I do love Groucho!), I ask again, what is the one "word to
> modify or govern two or more words?" I see only the word repeated, but in
> zeugma, it is supposed to be used only once -- zeugma is an eliptical device
> (for more detail, see Richard Lanham's _A Handbook of Rhetorical Terms_, or
> any number of websites on rhetoric, including Lynch, Perseus, et al). I
> don't see how my paradigm is faulty. If someone can show me how the
> quotation fits the rhetoric, I'll be happy to change my tune, however!
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 9:27:46 AM
> Subject: Re: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
> Paul, I think you are operating on too narrow a definition of zeugma.  Below
> is from Random House (via Dictionary.com).
>
>
> the use of a word to modify or govern two or more words when it is
> appropriate to only one of them or is appropriate to each but in a different
> way, as in to wage war and peace or On his fishing trip, he caught three
> trout and a cold.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
> Dick,
>
>
> Yes, there's a similarity to the pun, but not to the rhetorical structure.
> In Zeugma, there's supposed to be an eliptical structure (one verb serving
> in two separate places), but in the Groucho quotation the verb is repeated
> in the second clause. As I understand it, that repetition of the verb
> negates the definition of zeugma. Am I missing something? If Dickens wrote,
> "Mrs. Bolo went home in a taxi and went home in a sedan chair," wouldn't it
> no longer be the same rhetorical device?
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 11:11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
> Paul,
>
>
> I don't see much difference between your example ("Miss Bolo went home in a
> flood of tears and a sedan chair") and "Miss Bolo went home in a taxi and a
> huff and a minute and a huff."
>
>
> Groucho's lines have the impressive quality of being not only zeugma, but
> double zeugma, with a pun thrown in to boot. Pretty amazing.
>
>
> Dick
> ________________________________
> Richard Veit
> Department of English
> University of North Carolina Wilmington
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 10:57 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Groucho's rhetoric (was " Nouns - Elementary concept?")
>
>
> Dick,
>
>
> I don't see how this is zeugma; could you explain? Zeugma is a kind of
> eliptical statement, usually with one verb serving more than one subject or
> object - for example: "Miss Bolo went home in a flood of tears and a sedan
> chair" (Charles Dickens _The Pickwick Papers_).
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Paul
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: " Veit, Richard " <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 9:45:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Nouns - Elementary concept?
> More zeugma from Groucho:
>
>
> You'd better beat it. You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi, you
> can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a
> huff.
>
>
> Dick Veit
> ________________________________
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