[I'm getting into this discussion a bit late, so apologies if I reinvent
a wheel somewhere. I've scanned the thread, of course, but I tend to
miss implications at high speed]
Dick's outline of positions on transitivity is very, very useful. I'm
left wondering about "deep-structure objects" in definition four and
sentences like "He sings in the shower." "Sing" is the kind of verb that
looks like it could be interpreted as denoting the production of some
"product" ("he sang a song") or instead as denoting an ongoing activity.
You can sing without singing anything in particular (if, like me, you're
a horrible singer, that is the best tack to take, actually -- if you're
not aiming, you can't miss). A similar kind of ambivalence exists with
"eating," "drinking" and so forth -- yes, you eat food, but one can
think about eating as something you sit and do without the food actually
being an issue. I certainly can't rule out the possibility of
deep-structure objects for singing in all cases, but I don't think they
automatically have to be ruled in, either, even if one is using
definition four. With something like, "He's been reclassifying for two
weeks," on the other hand, even if I don't opt for an ellipsis argument,
it would be very hard to consider "reclassifying" as a simple activity
separate from what is being reclassified. Likewise, I don't normally
think of "cough" as implying a product, but that doesn't eliminate
sentences like, "the kid coughed milk all over the high chair."
I certainly don't think hitting K-16 students with something like
Vendler's taxonomy of verb types would be a good idea, but acknowledging
that we use what seems like the same word to refer to different *kinds*
of activities seems warranted. We can look at the whole clause as a clue
to how the verb is being conceptualized, regardless of whether we move
from that to anchoring the definition of transitivity itself in clause
frames or not.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
----- Original Message -----
From: Veit, Richard
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 7/6/2008 7:22:41 PM
Subject: Re: Transitivity vs Intransitivity - The Linguists' Version of
Hazing?
Dee, Craig, Tabetha,
Whether we regard a sentence as transitive depends on how we choose to
define the term, and we are choosing different definitions. Our diverse
definitions cover a lot of territory. The options seen in the four
postings (copied below) range from the narrowest to the broadest:
1. To be transitive, the verb must be immediately followed by a
direct object. [Tabetha's definition?]
2. To be transitive, the verb must have an overt direct object (in
any position). [Craig's definition?]
3. To be transitive, the verb must have a deep-structure direct
object, whether or not it is overt in the spoken sentence. [My
definition]
4. To be transitive, one must be able to imagine a direct object
for the verb. [Dee's definition?]
These definitions yield different results:
* "He remembered my birthday." Transitive for all four
definitions.
* "He remembered fondly the old days." Transitive for
definitions 2, 3, and 4; intransitive for definition 1.
* "Did he remember your birthday?" "He remembered." Transitive
for definitions 3 and 4; intransitive for definitions 1 and 2.
* "He sings in the shower." Transitive for definition 4;
intransitive for definitions 1, 2, and 3.
* "He coughed loudly." Intransitive for all four definitions.
My apologies if I mischaracterized your definition, but we certainly are
not all in accord, and the differences are interesting.
Dick Veit
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of diane skinner
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 8:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Transitivity vs Intransitivity - The Linguists' Version of
Hazing?
Hi all,
Klammer, Schulz, and Volpe, in Analyzing English Grammar, 4th ed. use
the following definitions for intransitive verbs:
"You can test whether a verb is intransitive by dividing the predicate
into phrases. If all the phrases except the main verb phase are
optional adverbial modifiers, then the verb is intransitive. If you
can substitute a prototypical adverb (like here, then, or slowly) for
the phrase, it is an adverbial phrase.
Ex: The bus stops here each Monday" (p.203).
To explain transitive verbs, they write: (1) "Are the subject noun
phrase (NP) the actor, the verb and action, and the object NP the
'receiver' of the action? if the answer is yes (as in John hit Bill,
where hitting is an action, John performs the action, and Bill
receives the action), then the sentence is probably Type V [i.e.,
contains a transitive verb].
(2) "To find the direct object, ask who? or what? after the subject
noun phrase and verb: John saw who/what? If the answer does not rename
the subject, it should be the direct object" (p. 221).
(3) "Is the verb followed by a direct object, a noun phrase that has a
referent different from that of the subject noun phrase? if so, the
sentence [contains a transitive verb]" (227).
Additionally, they include examples of transitive verbs with reflexive
and reciprocal direct objects: "Elmer cut himself with a Swiss Army
knife" (222),
and transitive verbs with object complements: "Cheryl considered
Carl's bean soup salty" (223).
Grammar is so much fun!!
Diane
On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Veit, Richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dee, Craig, Tabetha,
>
>
>
> Whether we regard a sentence as transitive depends on how we choose to
> define the term, and we are choosing different definitions. Our
diverse
> definitions cover a lot of territory. The options seen in the four
postings
> (copied below) range from the narrowest to the broadest:
>
>
>
> 1. To be transitive, the verb must be immediately followed by a
direct
> object. [Tabetha's definition?]
>
> 2. To be transitive, the verb must have an overt direct object
(in any
> position). [Craig's definition?]
>
> 3. To be transitive, the verb must have a deep-structure direct
> object, whether or not it is overt in the spoken sentence. [My
definition]
>
> 4. To be transitive, one must be able to imagine a direct object
for
> the verb. [Dee's definition?]
>
>
>
> These definitions yield different results:
>
>
>
> * "He remembered my birthday." Transitive for all four
> definitions.
>
> * "He remembered fondly the old days." Transitive for
definitions
> 2, 3, and 4; intransitive for definition 1.
>
> * "Did he remember your birthday?" "He remembered."
Transitive for
> definitions 3 and 4; intransitive for definitions 1 and 2.
>
> * "He sings in the shower." Transitive for definition 4;
> intransitive for definitions 1, 2, and 3.
>
> * "He coughed loudly." Intransitive for all four
definitions.
>
>
>
> My apologies if I mischaracterized your definition, but we certainly
are not
> all in accord, and the differences are interesting.
>
>
>
> Dick Veit
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dee Allen-Kirkhouse
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:23 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Transitivity vs Intransitivity - The Linguists' Version
of
> Hazing?
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Doesn't the idea of throwing mean moving an object from one place to
>
> another? It's a verb of transference, just as "giving" or "sending"
are
>
> verbs of transference. I would argue that throwing is always a
transitive
>
> verb with an implied direct object, if you will. Just as "Throw the
ball"
>
> has an implied subject, so does "The pitcher threw hard" have an
implied
>
> direct object--a object of some type. (Unless, he's "throwing up",
which
>
> is an entirely different function altogether and intransitive at
that.)
>
>
>
> As for remembering in the example of the prisoner, I'd argue that it
is a
>
> fragment--a stylistic approach that carries more weight than a list of
the
>
> things remembered. Imagine the philosopher, Rene Descartes, saying "I
>
> think great thoughts; therefore I am." It loses its punch. Remember
is in
>
> the same category of verbs as "think", "believe".
>
>
>
> "I think about you." Is "think" an intransitive verb in this
sentence?
>
> Or, is it a particle?
>
>
>
> I teach my students that one of the tricks to determining transitivity
is
>
> to look at the verb and ask either "what" or "how." If your answer is
>
> "what", then it is transitive. If your answer is "how", then it is
>
> intransitive. Mary runs the store. "The store" is a what; therefore,
>
> "runs" is transitive. Mary runs quickly. "Quickly" is a how;
therefore,
>
> "runs" is intransitive.
>
>
>
> Dee
>
>
>
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>
>> Date: 7/6/2008 4:46:18 PM
>
>> Subject: Re: Transitivity vs Intransitivity - The Linguists' Version
of
>
> Hazing?
>
>>
>
>> Dick,
>
>> I'm not sure I'm happy with the notion that transitivity is
somehow set
>
>> with the verb and not construed within a clause.
>
>> In "the pitcher throws hard", I can see why this might be
intransitive
>
>> because it puts the behavior of throwing into focus, though someone
>
>> might argue that pitchers always throw baseballs, so it must be
>
>> transitive. (In your "I remembered" example, wouldn't it always imply
>
>> "I remembered things?" Would "he threw hard" be transitive after a
game
>
>> because we understood that baseballs were being tossed? I would still
>
>> see it as intransitive because the throwing is what's in focus. We
also
>
>> have "He threw the ball into the stands" (complex transitive, though
>
>> not one of Martha's patterns) and "He threw the umpire the ball"
>
>> (di-transitive) as natural construals. Wouldn't transitive,
>
>> intransitive, and so on be as much a characteristic of a clause as it
>
>> is of the verb itself?
>
>> One reason for the differences would be different meanings for the
same
>
>> verb, which is why the dictionaries tend to divide the meanings. But
I
>
>> think we also have trhe ability to construe the same process in
>
>> different ways and bring a different kind of grammar (different
>
>> complements, different roles) into play.
>
>> Of course, either approach requires more than simply classifying
>
>> sentences. Discourse context becomes very important.
>
>>
>
>> Craig>
>
>>
>
>> Tabetha,
>
>> >
>
>> > I was puzzled by one thing you wrote:
>
>> >
>
>> > "I remember fondly" on the other hand is intransitive because
>
>> > "remember" is followed by an adverb.
>
>> >
>
>> > I have a hard time imagining an occasion where someone would say
those
>
>> > words as a complete sentence, with no spoken or implied direct
object.
>
>> > On the other hand, I can imagine someone saying, "Those were days I
>
>> > remember fondly," in which case remember is transitive, not
>
>> > intransitive.
>
>> >
>
>> > Even the two-word sentence "I remember" is not always intransitive.
>
>> > Here's an intransitive example:
>
>> >
>
>> > Q: How do you spend your days while in solitary confinement?
>
>> > A: I remember. [intransitive]
>
>> >
>
>> > On the other hand, here the same words are actually transitive,
with an
>
>> > implied direct object:
>
>> >
>
>> > Q: Do you remember what you did last night after drinking six
beers?
>
>> > A: I remember. [transitive]
>
>> >
>
>> > Perhaps I simply misinterpreted what you wrote and am telling you
>
>> > something you already know, in which case I (intransitively)
apologize.
>
>> >
>
>> > Dick Veit
>
>> >
>
>> > ________________________________
>
>> > Richard Hussein Veit
>
>> > Department of English
>
>> > University of North Carolina Wilmington
>
>> >
>
>> > ________________________________
>
>> >
>
>> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tabetha
Bernstein-Danis
>
>> > Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 10:07 PM
>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>
>> > Subject: Transitivity vs Intransitivity - The Linguists' Version of
>
>> > Hazing?
>
>> >
>
>> > Hello everyone. I am somewhat new on the listerv but have been
lurking
>
>> > for
>
>> > awhile. I teach a graduate level class on teaching grammar and
usage to
>
>> > preservice secondary teachers. Tonight I had my students engage in
an
>
>> > activity that many found rather confusing. Their task was to pull
>
>> > sentences from their own writing and to classify them according to
>
>> > Martha
>
>> > Kolln's seven sentence patterns. We ran into some difficulty when
trying
>
>> > to classify transitive and intransitive verbs. It seems that many
>
>> > students
>
>> > left the class more confused than enlightened, so I really want to
>
>> > revisit
>
>> > this concept to deepen their understanding and to help them think
about
>
>> > how they might tackle transitivity with middle and high school
students.
>
>> > The greatest difficulty involved verbs that can be either
transitive or
>
>> > intransitve. "Remember" is an example of one of these words. In the
>
>> > sentence, "I remember", the verb is intransitive because it can
stand
>
>> > alone. But if I say, "I remember my high school days", remember has
>
>> > become
>
>> > transitive because "my high school days" would be the direct
object. "I
>
>> > remember fondly" on the other hand is intransitive because
"remember" is
>
>> > followed by an adverb. However, some verbs are always transitive,
such
>
>> > as
>
>> > "gave". So, at risk of further confusing my students, how might the
>
>> > members of this listserv suggest I go about further exploring this
issue
>
>> > in class? This is a very short summer course, by the way, and will
be
>
>> > over
>
>> > in just 4 more weeks. I just don't want my students to be left
confused
>
>> > and to perhaps abandon teaching grammar altogether. After every
class I
>
>> > have my students provide feedback and I think this student's
response
>
>> > sums
>
>> > up the way many people feel about the ambiguity of grammar:
>
>> > "I don't feel that this lesson made anything more lucid, but I
certainly
>
>> > understand why teaching grammar makes students hate grammar, but I
>
>> > realize
>
>> > it's probably the linguists' version of hazing."
>
>> > Any responses would be gladly appreciated.
>
>> >
>
>> > Tabetha Bernstein-Danis
>
>> > ________________________________
>
>> >
>
>> > The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ
>
>> > Toolbar Now
>
>> >
<http://toolbar.aol.com/tmz/download.html?NCID=aolcmp00050000000014> !
>
>> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
select
>
>> > "Join or leave the list"
>
>> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>> >
>
>> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> interface
>
>> > at:
>
>> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>> > and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>> >
>
>> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> interface at:
>
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>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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