I would propose that this debate is not really about tense at all...

For some time now, Brad has been harping on this same issue as if
there is a conspiracy amongst the academic establishment to misuse the
English tense system and debase the English language. These sorts of
prescriptive complaints are predictable, tired, and frankly not very
interesting.

You will recall that I was one of the first people to try and move the
discussions towards being more civil a few weeks ago. Having done
that, I have resigned myself to the reality that it is unproductive to
argue with Brad, and doing so just detracts from spending time on more
interesting issues.

Here's why: No matter how you respond to Brad, it is treated as
evidence that he is correct, and he will not engage the substance of
your argument. If you insist that the situation is more complex than
Brad's proclamations allow, it is evidence that you are "fascinated
with incoherence"  and don't belong on the list. If you insist that
different speakers vary in how they use the language, it is treated as
evidence that you deny the existence of Standard English. If you point
out the errors in his reasoning, it is evidence that you are a
cut-throat "linguist" determined on mowing down everyone in your path.
In one of my off-list responses, he has even taken the ad hominem
approach, attacking the way I use tenses in my emails (!), rather than
responding to what I'm saying. If you read them, Brad's numerous
postings on past and perfect tenses are getting incredibly repetitive,
and seem, in sum, more like a cry for attention than an invitation to
a serious debate.

So having said that, I hope we can end this thread and move on to more
productive discussions.

Sincerely,
Dan Roth
Contra Costa College

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I'm not sure that spending so much time and energy on tenses is productive.
> I seem to recall that one of the great historical trends in English has been
> the elimination of tenses (as well as cases). So all of our discussion over
> tenses may actually be just an indication that this process is continuing
> and that one day in the not so distant future, we will all be speaking
> ebonics where the tense is gained from the context rather than the form of
> the tense indicator.  Add to this trend the elimination of cases - has
> everyone noticed that the objective case is slowly disappearing?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:43:29 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: from "Grammar Blast" via ATEG
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Brad:
>
>
>
> After perusing this discussion, I went back to my college grammar book:
> Homer C. House and Susan Emolyn Harman’s Descriptive English Grammar, 2nd
> edition, 1950.  Let me quote from House and Harman regarding the use of the
> perfect tenses:
>
>
>
> The perfect tenses represent the action of the verb as completed at a
> present, a past, or a future time.  The word perfect means completed; hence
> the present perfect tense denotes action completed at the time the speaker
> is making his statement, as I have finished the job. (116)
>
>
>
> Later in the chapter in the section on the uses of the various tenses, the
> writers explain the following ways in which the present perfect is used:
>
>
>
> The present perfect tense lays stress upon the completion of an action at
> the time when the speaker expresses the thought.  Like the present tense,
> the present perfect has extended its meanings and functions somewhat beyond
> the perfection of an act in the present.  It may indicate any of the
> following time meanings:
>
>
>
> ·         An act just completed, often with the help of an accompanying
> modifier:  [For example,] The doctor has just arrived.
>
> ·         An action beginning in the past and continuing into the future:
> [For example,] He has lived in my apartment for over a year.
>
> ·         An action completed at any time before the present: [For example,]
> The director has appointed the committees, and they are studying these
> problems. [And] Have I not seen you elsewhere?
>
> (120-21)
>
>
>
>
>
> If we return to the sentence about our dear friend Mia, does the present
> perfect not fit under condition #3 above?
>
>
>
> Which verb or verb phrase correctly completes this sentence?
> Mia ____ her part in raising money for the team uniforms.
>
>
>
> Also, wouldn’t has done be grammatically possible because it could indicate
> “action completed at the time the speaker is making his statement”?
>
>
>
>
>
> In their lengthy discussion of the various tenses, House and Harman clearly
> state that “[t]here is considerable overlapping of the functions of the
> tenses” (118).  I believe both House and Harman were  grammarians, not the
> firebrand linguists you refer to.
>
>
>
> How is my understanding of House and Harman wrong?  Or in what ways are
> their ideas about the present perfect wrong?  What are the condition(s)
> under which we can use the present perfect tense?
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:49 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: from "Grammar Blast" via ATEG
>
>
>
> So, Julie, a test question might read, Of the answers below, which one is
> the sum of 23 and 14?
>
>
>
> o 26
>
> o 33
>
> o 41
>
> o 57
>
>
>
> ... and the student would have to think, well, 33 is 4 under and 41 is 4
> over, and they're the closest, but the question says which one, so I'm
> screwed. The right answer isn't there. I guess I won't get into West Point
> after all. Or should the four answers necessarily include the correct one? I
> think Houghton-Mifflin thinks "Nick has written a new song" is correct so
> they're home free. They're not home free but we let them do it so they're
> none the wiser.
>
>
>
> Secondly, and importantly, should not any person who gets a teaching
> certificate be able to look at H-M's verb quizzes and see that many of them
> are in error? How can their quizzes have been out there for so long and no
> grammar teacher has taken them to task?
>
>
>
> Can any grammarian on this list look at the Mia question and not cry "foul"?
>
>
>
> Which verb or verb phrase correctly completes this sentence?
> Mia ____ her part in raising money for the team uniforms.
>
> do
> done
> has done
> has did
>
> H-M obviously wants "has done" but Mia "did" her part, unless Mia is still
> out knocking on doors, in which case we'd say, "Mia is doing her part".
>
>
>
> Geoff and the linguists don't want to hear it but I have a collection of
> more than 100 citations from English grammar websites and English grammar
> textbooks with verb errors similar to Mia, and who cares? We know Geoff
> doesn't but I think there are a lot of people on this list who do care but
> who get drowned out by the esoteric contemplations of the linguists, who
> could each write four chapters on why 33 is closer to 37 than is 41 and tell
> you in which part of Australia they know it to be true.
>
>
>
> I'll bet there are 50 ATEG grammarians who might have written what I wrote
> about the Grammar Blast quizzes and Geoff would have blasted back with his
> huffalump -- I like it, Julie; very expressive, even though none of us ever
> heard it or saw it before. Bravo! -- Geoff would have let them have it with
> his huffalump and they would all say, "Hey, who needs this? See ya later".
>
>
>
> .brad.16aug10.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Julie Nichols <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sun, August 15, 2010 7:32:38 PM
> Subject: Re: from "Grammar Blast" via ATEG
>
> I actually think there might be some civil answers to Brad's questions.
>
> Concerning the multiple choice questions, it seems to me that the test
> questions need only add something like "of the answers given below, which is
> standard English?" or "...which is most correct according to formal standard
> written English practices?"  Then all the other "right" answers, the ones
> not provided in the multiple choice list, can be considered but not worried
> about, since they aren't "given below"...And as always when we're composing,
> whether it's a test or an argument essay (or one-line diatribe), we need to
> ask about audience. What population of middle schoolers would have trouble
> with the given lists? What population of middle schoolers would NOT
> understand the implied "given below"?  I think that question is the key to
> the answer to Geoff's huffalump below. Those who want to know, or care, and
> why bother, has to do with the middle schoolers who might NOT get the
> implied "of the answers given below," and would therefore be penalized in
> local and national rankings. Who are they? What will happen to them if they
> sit at their desks thinking, "The right answer isn't even in the list so
> what should I do? I don't know what to do and they're going to get me if I
> do nothing or if I do it wrong, but the right answer isn't there." Who needs
> to be their advocate?  Do we let questions like this do the
> socioeconomic-stratification thing they often do, or do we step up to H-F
> and suggest more careful posing of test questions? I think Brad's correct
> that somebody should advocate for fair tests, or at least for tests that
> fairly examine knowledge of conventional English usage in the middle
> schools.
>
> Just a start on a perhaps more civil discourse regarding a real issue.
>
> Julie
>
>>>> "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]> 08/15/10 3:06 PM >>>
>
> Who wants to know? Who cares? Why bother? And other standard responses to
> Brad's questions!
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 07:27:03 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: from "Grammar Blast" via ATEG
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Which verb phrase correctly completes this sentence?
> Nick ____ a new song.
>
> has writ
> has wrote
> has writed
> has written
>
> Houghton-Mifflin's (Grades 6-8) answer is "has written". Correct answer, not
> offered, is "wrote", unless Nick is still writing as we speak, in which case
> the sentence should read, "Nick is writing a new song".
>
> Is it not so?
>
> Same for this one for Grade 7:
>
> Which verb or verb phrase correctly completes this sentence?
> Mia ____ her part in raising money for the team uniforms.
>
> do
> done
> has done
> has did
>
> Mia "did" her part, unless Mia is still out knocking on doors.
>
> still Grade 7.
>
> Complete this sentence to correctly form the future perfect tense.
> Molly ____ written to her aunt in Dublin, Ireland.
> has
> will have
> had
> did have
>
> The future perfect is not possible without enabling context.
>
> Still 7th Grade.
>
> Which verb or verb phrase correctly completes this sentence?
> Lincoln ____ a taxi at the street corner.
>
> has catched
> catched
> was caught
> has caught
>
> Try "caught" here, Houghton-Mifflin -- and by extension ATEG.
>
> Which sentence has a verb in the past progressive form?
>
> Will you help me hang these curtains?
> It can be an awkward task for one person.
> Do you like the pink-and-orange stripes on the fabric?
> I was hoping for a bright, cheery effect.
>
> Ya wanna try this one without help, Seventh Graders?
>
> Now it's Eighth Grade and H-M is still doing it.
>
> Which verb correctly completes this sentence?
> Jack has ____ his bicycle all over Nebraska.
>
> rided
> riden
> ridden
> rid
>
> Not unless he's still pedaling, H-M.
>
> Whew! Houghton-Mifflin needs help.
>
> N'est-ce pas?
>
>
>
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