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January 2004

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Subject:
From:
Edward Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:15:51 -0500
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I have to disagree with Paul when he said that Cynthia's question was addressed to the wrong group. Cynthia wrote: 

  "Is grammar really so scarcely taught in most US high schools? If it is not taught much, I would be interested in hearing from high school teachers the rationale behind such a curriculum."

Paul, in part, responded:

  "The problem, as I see it, is that the question is directed at the wrong group. Grammar is either rarely taught or poorly taught in the elementary and middle schools - and many who DO teach it there feel obligated to do so in secret!

Paul's post was followed  by Jan's:
"I keep coming back to the fact the many teachers were never taught grammar themselves."

I would strongly suggest that many of the teachers of teachers on this list do not teach their student teachers the grammar that those teachers really need, i.e., the ability to identify subjects, verbs, clauses. It is easy to blame the "anti-grammar" group, but I would like to defend them. A student teacher from Virginia once called me to ask for help. She had taken a required course in linguistics, and passed it, but she could not identify most subjects, verbs, and clauses. She didn't know how to "teach" clauses because she could not even recognize them. Whose job is it to teach the teachers, and what should teachers be taught? Is that not a question that this group should address? (If not this group, then who should?)
     Many years ago, at an ATEG conference, I suggested that the group pass a resolution to the effect that every high school graduate should be able to identify the subjects, verbs, and clauses in a typical passage written by a high school student. That suggestion was rejected, primarily because, it is my belief, many members of ATEG wanted to continue teaching the advanced linguistics that they teach. They realized that such a resolution might affect, seriously, the content of their courses.
      Cynthia asked for the rationale behind not teaching grammar in the high schools. I would suggest, once again,  that it is the confusion, within this group and elsewhere, about precisely what grammar should be taught. In essence, the response of this group appears to be "grammar," whatever "grammar" may mean. 

     In another post, John Crow noted:
"Ed:  My original posting concerned grammar pedagogy.  You chose to respond, for the most part, by introducing an issue that was, at best, tangential: how to treat phrasal verbs.  The phrasal verb question attracted much interest and generated some _very_ enlightening discussions; my pedagogical question fell by the wayside until Johanna picked it up and dusted it off.
I found it interestingly ironic that you, the person who decries the preponderance of this type of discussion on this listserv, were responsible for this linguistic detour and that, as you would have predicted, the grammar question got a lot more play than the pedagogy question."

If I remember correctly, I introduced phrasal verbs as an example of what this group prefers to focus on instead of focusing on pedagogy. If irony implies a gap between what is expected and what actually happens, then I'm not sure that I would consider what I did ironic ¯  as John points  out, it's what I could have predicted. 

I don't see the pedagogical problem itself as very troublesome. It would take a little time to enable students to identify prepositional phrases, subjects, verbs, clauses in their own writing, but it is not a difficult thing to do. The problem is that this group is not interested in the problem. I can't keep track of all the grammar textbooks, but has anyone found one that leads students into analyzing (and discussing) real paragraphs from their own or their peers' writing? 
     I think Cynthia's question (and Jan's response) was right on target for this group. If I am wrong, can this group now agree that high school graduates should be able to identify the subjects, verbs, and clauses in a typical passage written by a high school student? 
Ed

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