Herb, Dick, et al.:
Like Dick, I feel I instinctively resist Herb's analysis on this one,
although it's a perfectly logical analysis. We've had part of this
conversation on the list before, I know, but I've lost track of which
comments I've already made, so apologies for any duplication. I've been
trying to pin down *why* I'm having this reaction. In addition to the
"But...but....I learned it different!" motivation, I think I've
identified two more (I'd like to emphasize at this point that, while I'm
going to argue with the analysis, there's no sense in which I could
claim it's "wrong"; instead, I'm tossing out a contrary argument partly
to see where the flaws in my own reasoning might be):
(1) I'm nervous about multiplying zero elements. While it's true we have
relative clauses with no relativizer at all, I don't even want to say
there's really a zero in those (I'd prefer to say that the occurrence of
an element like an NP in an otherwise-ungrammatical position cues the
hearer that an embedded clause is beginning). If I follow Herb's
analysis correctly, I have no way of ruling out an additional step in
which I could claim that the "no relativizer" clauses actually have TWO
zeroes -- the usual one that stands in for the missing element, and an
initial one that's the zero-allomorph of conjunctive 'that'. Then I
start seeing zero elements everywhere.
(2) This is one that *badly* needs corroboration, but....I've heard
people slip up and use a possessive marker on 'that' when it's standing
where a 'whose' would normally go ("We took the car that's door lock is
busted"). If I'm right about that, it would be evidence that at least
some speakers are processing 'that' as if it's a nominal element.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 11:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pedants that or who?
Herb,
I understand that "that" has a different origin from the wh-relative
pronouns, and I understand that there are restrictions on "that" which
are not placed on wh-relative pronouns (e.g., "that" doesn't occur after
prepositions, and "that" occurs only in restrictive relatives).
Nevertheless, it's hard for me to get around my intuition that "that" is
acting as a pronoun. For me, in "the dog who barked" and "the dog that
barked," "who" and "that" don't feel different, and both seem to
function as the verb's subject.
Also, if "that" is a conjunction and cannot fill a subject or object
slot, and if "who" is a pronoun and can fill those slots, why are "that"
and "who" mutually exclusive in a relative clause? Why can't we get "the
dog that who barked"? Are there any other instances in the grammar where
words of different grammatical categories and functions occur mutually
exclusively in the same position?
Finally, don't lots of children say things like "the boy that's mother
drove him"?
Dick
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 1:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pedants that or who?
Dick,
I'm saying that the verb has a zero subject. Many speakers find such
sentences acceptable in speech, as in "There's the guy met me at the
airport." Whether one accepts such a spoken sentence or not, it does
have a zero subject. So in that-relatives, the co-indexed noun in the
RC deletes. In those cases where deletion is prevented by other
factors, as with possessives or fronted PPs that-relatives aren't
allowed and wh-rels get used. For many speakers those positions that
don't allow deletion show up with resumptive pronouns, as in "The guy
that I talked to his brother yesterday lives in Indianapolis."
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 18, 2009 10:50 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pedants that or who?
Herb,
I know you have made this case, but I'd like to hear more. In "the dog
who barked," who is a pronoun and the subject of the relative clause.
Are you saying that, in "the dog that barked," the verb barked has no
subject? Or are you saying that a conjunction can be the subject? Or
something else entirely?
Dick
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pedants that or who?
We've discussed that vs. who at great length on this list, and I've made
the argument, based on grammarians like Jespersen and Huddleston&Pullum,
that the claim of a distinction of humanness is false. Relative-that is
not a pronoun; it's a subordinating conjunction, the same as it is with
noun clauses. Because it isn't a pronoun, it can't agree grammatically.
Conjunctions in English don't. "Who," on the other hand, is a pronoun
with human reference. The "that" form goes back to Old English. The
"wh-" forms in their modern form arise in Middle English after the 13th
c.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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