Susan,
    If correctness is your issue, then we can test knowledge about
language related to correctness. "Which of the following is a run-on
sentence?" "Which of the following has a verb that does not agree with
its subject?" "Which of the following seems unnecessarily wordy?"
    I think correctness is much easier to deal with if there is a wide
understanding of language shared by teacher and student. I also
believe that wider understanding has other huge benefits. We have
limited grammar instruction to error and then tried to make that as
minimally intrusive as possible, and the results have been terrible.
Knowledge about language has seriously diminished, even among teachers
of English.  >
   We can agree to disagree on this one, although I am always surprised
when people express anti-grammar sentiment on a list for teaching
grammar.

Craig,
>
> This is the kind of question that got grammar kicked out of high school in
> the first place.  If we want to get grammar back into the high school
> classroom, we need to be able to design real-world test questions.  That's
> why the SAT addresses correctness.   Like it or not, in the real world
> many college admissions officers, prospective employers, and even one's
> acquaintances use grammatical errors as a measure of intelligence.   When
> a student asks, "I did good on that test, didn't I?", I only correct him
> because I want him to know that he may be stereotyped as ignorant by
> others.
>
> Your question is hopelessly easy to create, but it hopelessly does nothing
> to reveal eloquence nor correctness.
>
> It is impossible to objectively test for eloquence and beauty.  So we are
> stuck with the SAT's current attempt at correctness.  I don't always like
> their questions, but I like your question even less.
>
> Susan
>
>
> On Jan 15, 2011, at 12:27 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>
>> Susan,
>>    I have no problem at all with an objective test. My sense is that the
>> SAT does not ask for explicit knowledge precisely because it is not
>> taught.
>> Here's a kind of question you might ask in a multiple choice format:
>> "Which of the following include an adverbial prepositional phrase as
>> sentence opener?"
>> a) At home, I could always find a caring parent.
>> b) I could always find a caring parent when I got home.
>> c) When I got home, I could always find a caring parent.
>> d) A caring parent was there whenever I got home.
>>
>>    The answer, of course, would be a.
>>   Objective tests of this nature are easy to design. You decide what it
>> is important to know and then design questions that measure it
>> directly.
>>
>> Craig
>>>
>>
>>
>> Craig and others who dislike the SAT test,
>>>
>>> What are the kinds of things high school students should know about
>>> grammar that could be tested in an objective, pre-college test?  Can
>>> you
>>> give some examples of good multiple choice question that would measure
>>> explicit grammar knowledge that you think is important and relevant?
>>>
>>> Or is the very idea of an objective test the problem?
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 15, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karl,
>>>>   It's interesting that they still equate grammar with "conventions"
>>>> and
>>>> with error, though they open up with more sophisticated terminology.
>>>> The SAT test doesn't measure explicit knowledge about language; it
>>>> simply asks you to find (or intuit) the best choice among options.
>>>> There isn't, for example, a need to identify a structure as a
>>>> prepositional phrase or modal auxiliary. No need to handle the "in
>>>> early morning dawn" type of question we have been discussing other
>>>> than to choose it as an alternative. It's interesting that they also
>>>> separate proofreading and grammar from "more conceptual" skills,
>>>> clearly not even aware that other views of grammar are possible. (One
>>>> core concept of cognitive grammar--grammar is conceptualization.)They
>>>> still don't seem to be making the judgment that knowledge about
>>>> language is valuable in itself.
>>>>  This is pretty much true of the National Governor's Standards as
>>>> well.
>>>> They are a bit better, but still old school in their construal of
>>>> grammar. Whether you are for it or against it, it still seems to be
>>>> focused on correctness.
>>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that no one has brought this up. It appears Texas
>>>> schools
>>>>> are going to get a lot more explicit grammatical instruction.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-grammar_15met.ART.State.Edition1.14a5f2e.html
>>>>>
>>>>> When Texas was arguing about new curriculum standards, I heard a lot
>>>>> about the fight over the science standards, but nothing at all about
>>>>> English standards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there any Texas educators on the list who would care to comment
>>>>> about what difference these changes are making in the trenches?
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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