I am chuckling because I use Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2d ed.
I also try to keep on hand at least one Webster's Collegiate 5th ed.
or earlier and, of course, I have an NED that requires a magnifying
glass to read.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 25 Jan 2009 to 26 Jan 2009 (#2009-19)
There are 2 messages totalling 198 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Usage and Style Guides (2)
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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:21:18 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Usage and Style Guides
Karl,
I use both Chicago and Garner a good bit, and while I'd agree that
Garner is rehashing a lot of arbitrary prescriptivism, I've found that
it's prescriptivism that has social force among some readers and
(frequently) editors. Copy editing is sometimes about how the audience
thinks the language *should* be used, not about how it's used, after
all. If your goal is to get as few letters to the editor as possible
that chide you about your usage, Garner is handy -- regardless of
whether the people sending those letters are simply in need of more bran
in their diet. He does, of course, have his completely idiosyncratic
moments, but so do we all.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Usage and Style Guides
For issues of usage, I prefer the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of
English
Usage. It gives balanced coverage of the widest variety of usage points
you're
likely to find, along with commentary about what a huge range of earlier
usage
guides have said, and a real descriptive investigation into how
well-respected writers actually use the language.
I like the Chicago Manual of Style for issues such as punctuation,
spelling,
distinctive treatment of words, etc. But I don't find the grammar
section in
the latest edition particularly helpful. The politest way I can describe
Garner's work, both in the Chicago Manual and in his standalone works,
is that
it is a somewhat idiosyncratic rehash of a lot of prescriptive nonsense
that
has been thoroughly debunked many times before. (OK, that's not very
polite,
but it's the best I can manage.)
Michael Kischner wrote:
> I'd like to hear what members recommend when they are asked about
guides
> to usage and style. The people who ask me typically are not academics
> and do not want textbooks. I myself tend to go to the online Chicago
> Manual (which you have to subscribe to). Any other good ideas? In
> retiring two years ago, I find I did too good a job of not bringing
> books home from the office!
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:14:11 -0800
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Usage and Style Guides
Bill,
I agree up to a point. That is, I don't deny the social force behind
prescriptivism, but I do think that the worry about what others will think
is
often exaggerated, particularly once you get away from a fairly narrow set
of
non-standard usages. All too often copy editors change things that, if they
left them alone, would go unnoticed.
For the most part, complaint letters are directly or indirectly about the
content of the published piece. When grammar is mentioned, it usually serves
as a proxy for another dislike. When we're reading for content, many of the
so-called problems in usage guides simply pass beneath our notice.
The best illustration of this that I know of is Joseph Williams' article
"The
Phenomenology of Error," College Composition and Communication 32 (1981):
152-168 (on-line copy here: http://www.stthomasu.ca/~hunt/williams.htm).
Also worth reading is Debora Cameron's discussion of copy editing in her
book
_Verbal Hygene_.
Regards,
Karl
Spruiell, William C wrote:
> Karl,
>
> I use both Chicago and Garner a good bit, and while I'd agree that
> Garner is rehashing a lot of arbitrary prescriptivism, I've found that
> it's prescriptivism that has social force among some readers and
> (frequently) editors. Copy editing is sometimes about how the audience
> thinks the language *should* be used, not about how it's used, after
> all. If your goal is to get as few letters to the editor as possible
> that chide you about your usage, Garner is handy -- regardless of
> whether the people sending those letters are simply in need of more bran
> in their diet. He does, of course, have his completely idiosyncratic
> moments, but so do we all.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:00 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Usage and Style Guides
>
> For issues of usage, I prefer the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of
> English
> Usage. It gives balanced coverage of the widest variety of usage points
> you're
> likely to find, along with commentary about what a huge range of earlier
> usage
> guides have said, and a real descriptive investigation into how
> well-respected writers actually use the language.
>
> I like the Chicago Manual of Style for issues such as punctuation,
> spelling,
> distinctive treatment of words, etc. But I don't find the grammar
> section in
> the latest edition particularly helpful. The politest way I can describe
> Garner's work, both in the Chicago Manual and in his standalone works,
> is that
> it is a somewhat idiosyncratic rehash of a lot of prescriptive nonsense
> that
> has been thoroughly debunked many times before. (OK, that's not very
> polite,
> but it's the best I can manage.)
>
> Michael Kischner wrote:
>> I'd like to hear what members recommend when they are asked about
> guides
>> to usage and style. The people who ask me typically are not academics
>> and do not want textbooks. I myself tend to go to the online Chicago
>> Manual (which you have to subscribe to). Any other good ideas? In
>> retiring two years ago, I find I did too good a job of not bringing
>> books home from the office!
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 25 Jan 2009 to 26 Jan 2009 (#2009-19)
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