The problem is not that one person knows--or is ignorant of--word
distinctions or punctuation usage. The problem is far more profound: the
English teachers are ignorant because their teachers and parents never
learned such precision in language and could not pass it on and scorn those
who do. I was corrected by an English professor at an MLA convention when I
said, "If I were he" and told that correct English would be "If I was him."
I simply stopped and said that we did not speak the same language and added
that controversy makes equals of the fool and the wise man--and the fool
knows it. I left.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 27 Apr 2012 to 29 Apr 2012 (#2012-41)
There are 3 messages totalling 777 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language (3)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:38:24 +0100
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language
Stephen Fry's complaint about the complainers about spelling and grammar
relies on a dubious assumption. Like many another who rails at the
=8Cpedants=B9 who jump to correct misuse of English in the media, he uses
the argument that public usage is the final court of appeal.
What is not inquired into is how =8Cusage=B9 is to be defined. For example,
English schools once had to make more of a fuss about distinguishing words
(once part of the English examination syllabus, actually called
=8CConfusables=B9 =AD such as the little group =8Cjudicious-judicial=B9,
'industrious-industrial', =8Ccontinuous-continual=B9,
=8Csensuous-sensual=B9, =8Cceremonial-ceremonious=B9, etc.). Because of
this inclusion in the syllabus= , very few errors with confusable pairs
appeared in the usage of newspapers,
magazines, -- even comics. So it was part of the common =8Cusage=B9. If
such
discriminations have disappeared, it says more about fashions of teaching
than anything else.
=20
Another UK example, occurs in the pronunciation of the letter H: I was
taught in school that its name was =8Caitch=B9 (now still to be heard on the
BB= C television programme =8CCountdown=B9, a word-game, and also confirmed
by the Oxford English Dictionary), but my bank contacts tell me that they
are working for the =8CHaitch SBC Bank=B9, having, no doubt, been avid
viewers of the Australian soap =8CNeighbours=B9. Similarly, are our English
pupils to be told that the pronunciation =8CharASS=B9 is the common English
usage and not
=8CHARass=B9 because a sufficient number of American cop shows are on
English TV? It becomes a question of =8CWhich country=B9s usage?=B9
=20
Take one other of Stephen Fry's examples, the confusion of 'refute' and
'deny'. =8CRefute=B9 means BY USING COUNTERVAILING PROOF, PRODUCE A
CONVINCIN=
G
ARGUMENT AGAINST ANOTHER=B9S ASSERTION: =8Cdeny=B9 means WITHOUT ARGUMENT,
TO
CONTRADICT ANOTHER=B9S ASSERTION. The loss of the distinction between
=8Crefute=B9 and =8Cdeny=B9 would be an enfeeblement of the language: I
read last week in the newspaper that the Irish Sinn Feiner Jerry Adams has
just 'refuted' recent accusations against him, but no arguments had been
forthcoming from him. Amazing! I would have very much liked to have read
his refutation. What I don't like about this error is that it seems to be
used by persons uncertain of their vocabulary WHO ARE TRYING TO USE A BIG
WORD TO SOUND IMPRESSIVE, THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.
One can add that it does not take very long to teach the correct use of the
apostrophe. Stephen Fry himself appears to be aware of the rules: he coul=
d not have picked this up from greengrocers' price tags, could he?
Similarly with 'imply' and 'infer' -- I was fairly successful in teaching
the difference with the rhythmic tag 'Speakers and writers imply: hearers
and readers infer'.
Nor does he seem to have heard of redundancy in language, and the essential
part it plays in our everyday communication -- for example, that involved i=
n the distinction between count and mass nouns, subject and verb agreement,
singulars and plurals, and more. 'Fewer' and 'less', for example, is tied
to the count noun/mass noun distinction -- Does one ever hear anyone say
'fewer sand'? As for plurals, one can hear and read in the media BOTH
'bacterium' AND 'bacteria', 'criterion' AND 'criteria', 'phenomenon' AND
'phenomena' for the SINGULAR -- so just what is the common usage? The fact
that no one says 'radiuses' instead of 'radii' I attribute to the fussy
pronunciation of the former (though I have heard 'crisises' instead of
'crises'). Redundancy is fact disappearing as regards subject and verb
agreement (e.g. -- heard this week on BBC radio, 'There's lots of planes o=
n the tarmac', 'All of us objects to it'). But redundancy is badly named
because these extra, strictly repetitive clues are there to ensure that we
can pick our way more clearly through the cloud of words we hear, and thus
they cannot be summarily jettisoned. The aim of redundancy is to help
hearers get the message.
Do I sense an underlying old-romantic resistance to the teaching of grammar
here? With all the excellent textbooks now on sale in the U.S.A. (by
Constance Weaver, Martha Kolln, and the like, and the absence of them in
England) I fear that we English are still mired in a self-defeating ideolog=
y which is sustaining class distinctions by which we over here, both
'upper-'
and 'lower-class', seem to be mesmerized. An overall appeal to 'usage'
conceals both snobbery and its inversion. I trace the prejudice to the
deeply embedded division in the UK between private and state education, and
the foundations of that can be traced further. We even had a CONSERVATIVE
member of parliament this week complaining about the Prime Minister being
too 'posh' to understand the plight of the poor. I imagine that you
Americans don't even use the word 'posh'. So we are 'posh', are we, if we
try to teach apostrophe rules to working-class children?
Edmond Wright
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:11:59 -0400
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language
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Dear Edmond,
I would wager that Stephen Fry is aware of every one of the distinctions you
mention and would almost always make the same usage choices in his speech
and writing that you do.
The point he is making, however, is a different thing altogether. Language
is a glorious thing, he says, and our relationship with language should be
joyful and playful. We should have fun with language. How dreary he finds it
that those who make the most noise about others not getting all the
distinctions right come across as angry and joyless, having no fun
whatsoever. God forbid that should be the attitude teachers communicate in
their classrooms.
Fry understands the less/fewer distinction, but he has decided not to get
angry at others who don't.
(My own observation is that "less" is being used increasingly with count
nouns as well as mass nouns, to the point where that is fast becoming
standard usage. Does this mean we are losing clarity? Is our language being
impoverished? We use "more" for both count and mass nouns, and I've never
heard anyone complain that the absence of a distinction resulted in muddled
thought or language impoverishment. The list of language changes that
purists have railed against in the past but which are now considered utterly
unexceptionable is long and can teach us about the nature of language change
and about human nature as well.)
Also true that many Brits are now pronouncing "aitch" like Americans, just
as many Americans are now saying "spot on" like the Brits. Is it worth
getting our knickers in a knot (another UK import) about it?
So let's teach our students to revel in infer/imply and a hundred other
interesting and useful distinctions--without giving them any cause to
believe the study of language involves a joyless censoriousness.
Dick
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>wrot=
e:
> Stephen Fry's complaint about the complainers about spelling and
> grammar relies on a dubious assumption. Like many another who rails
> at the
> =8Cpedants=B9 who jump to correct misuse of English in the media, he
> uses=
the
> argument that public usage is the final court of appeal.
>
> What is not inquired into is how =8Cusage=B9 is to be defined. For
> examp=
le,
> English schools once had to make more of a fuss about distinguishing
> word=
s
> (once part of the English examination syllabus, actually called
> =8CConfusables=B9 =AD such as the little group
> =8Cjudicious-judicial=B9, 'industrious-industrial',
> =8Ccontinuous-continual=B9, =8Csensuous-sensual=
=B9,
> =8Cceremonial-ceremonious=B9, etc.). Because of this inclusion in the
> syllabus, very few errors with confusable pairs appeared in the usage
> of newspapers=
,
> magazines, -- even comics. So it was part of the common =8Cusage=B9. If=
such
> discriminations have disappeared, it says more about fashions of
> teaching than anything else.
>
> Another UK example, occurs in the pronunciation of the letter H: I
> was taught in school that its name was =8Caitch=B9 (now still to be
> heard on =
the
> BBC
> television programme =8CCountdown=B9, a word-game, and also confirmed
> by =
the
> Oxford English Dictionary), but my bank contacts tell me that they are
> working for the =8CHaitch SBC Bank=B9, having, no doubt, been avid
> viewer=
s of
> the Australian soap =8CNeighbours=B9. Similarly, are our English
> pupils =
to be
> told that the pronunciation =8CharASS=B9 is the common English usage
> and =
not
> =8CHARass=B9 because a sufficient number of American cop shows are on
> Eng=
lish
> TV? It becomes a question of =8CWhich country=B9s usage?=B9
>
> Take one other of Stephen Fry's examples, the confusion of 'refute' and
> 'deny'. =8CRefute=B9 means BY USING COUNTERVAILING PROOF, PRODUCE A
> CONVINCING
> ARGUMENT AGAINST ANOTHER=B9S ASSERTION: =8Cdeny=B9 means WITHOUT ARGUME=
NT, TO
> CONTRADICT ANOTHER=B9S ASSERTION. The loss of the distinction between
> =8Crefute=B9 and =8Cdeny=B9 would be an enfeeblement of the language:
> I =
read last
> week in the newspaper that the Irish Sinn Feiner Jerry Adams has just
> 'refuted' recent accusations against him, but no arguments had been
> forthcoming from him. Amazing! I would have very much liked to have
> rea=
d
> his refutation. What I don't like about this error is that it seems
> to b=
e
> used by persons uncertain of their vocabulary WHO ARE TRYING TO USE A
> BIG WORD TO SOUND IMPRESSIVE, THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.
>
> One can add that it does not take very long to teach the correct use
> of t=
he
> apostrophe. Stephen Fry himself appears to be aware of the rules: he
> could not have picked this up from greengrocers' price tags, could he?
> Similar=
ly
> with 'imply' and 'infer' -- I was fairly successful in teaching the
> difference with the rhythmic tag 'Speakers and writers imply: hearers
> an=
d
> readers infer'.
>
> Nor does he seem to have heard of redundancy in language, and the
> essenti=
al
> part it plays in our everyday communication -- for example, that
> involved in the distinction between count and mass nouns, subject and
> verb agreement, singulars and plurals, and more. 'Fewer' and 'less',
> for example, is tie=
d
> to the count noun/mass noun distinction -- Does one ever hear anyone
> say 'fewer sand'? As for plurals, one can hear and read in the media
> BOTH 'bacterium' AND 'bacteria', 'criterion' AND 'criteria',
> 'phenomenon' AND 'phenomena' for the SINGULAR -- so just what is the
> common usage? The fa=
ct
> that no one says 'radiuses' instead of 'radii' I attribute to the
> fussy pronunciation of the former (though I have heard 'crisises'
> instead of 'crises'). Redundancy is fact disappearing as regards
> subject and verb agreement (e.g. -- heard this week on BBC radio,
> 'There's lots of planes on the tarmac', 'All of us objects to it').
> But redundancy is badly named because these extra, strictly repetitive
> clues are there to ensure that w=
e
> can pick our way more clearly through the cloud of words we hear, and
> thu=
s
> they cannot be summarily jettisoned. The aim of redundancy is to help
> hearers get the message.
>
> Do I sense an underlying old-romantic resistance to the teaching of
> gramm=
ar
> here? With all the excellent textbooks now on sale in the U.S.A. (by
> Constance Weaver, Martha Kolln, and the like, and the absence of them
> in
> England) I fear that we English are still mired in a self-defeating
> ideology which is sustaining class distinctions by which we over here,
> both 'upper=
-'
> and 'lower-class', seem to be mesmerized. An overall appeal to 'usage'
> conceals both snobbery and its inversion. I trace the prejudice to
> the deeply embedded division in the UK between private and state
> education, a=
nd
> the foundations of that can be traced further. We even had a
> CONSERVATIV=
E
> member of parliament this week complaining about the Prime Minister
> being too 'posh' to understand the plight of the poor. I imagine that
> you Americans don't even use the word 'posh'. So we are 'posh', are
> we, if w=
e
> try to teach apostrophe rules to working-class children?
>
> Edmond Wright
>
>
> Dr. Edmond Wright
> 3 Boathouse Court
> Trafalgar Road
> Cambridge
> CB4 1DU
> England
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--f46d0444ef4f339d1c04bed6f364
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Edmond,<br><br>I would wager that Stephen Fry is aware of every one of=
the distinctions you mention and would almost always make the same usage c=
hoices in his speech and writing that you do.<br><br>The point he is making=
, however, is a different thing altogether. Language is a glorious thing, h=
e says, and our relationship with language should be joyful and playful. We=
should have fun with language. How dreary he finds it that those who make =
the most noise about others not getting all the distinctions right come acr=
oss as angry and joyless, having no fun whatsoever. God forbid that should =
be the attitude teachers communicate in their classrooms.<br> <br>Fry
understands the less/fewer distinction, but he has decided not to g= et
angry at others who don't. <br><br>(My own observation is that "=
;less" is being used increasingly with count nouns as well as mass nou=
ns, to the point where that is fast becoming standard usage. Does this mean=
we are losing clarity? Is our language being impoverished? We use "mo=
re" for both count and mass nouns, and I've never heard anyone com=
plain that the absence of a distinction resulted in muddled thought or lang=
uage impoverishment. The list of language changes that purists have railed =
against in the past but which are now considered utterly unexceptionable is=
long and can teach us about the nature of language change and about human =
nature as well.)<br> <br>Also true that many Brits are now pronouncing
"aitch" like Am= ericans, just as many Americans are now saying
"spot on" like the= Brits. Is it worth getting our knickers in a
knot (another UK import) abou= t it?<br> <br>So let's teach our students
to revel in infer/imply and a hundred o= ther interesting and useful
distinctions--without giving them any cause to = believe the study of
language involves a joyless censoriousness.<br><br> Dick<br><br><br><br><div
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 2:38= PM, Edmond Wright <span
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] .ac.uk"
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Stephen Fry's complaint about the
complainers about spelling and gramma= r<br> relies on a dubious assumption.
=A0Like many another who rails at the<br>
=8Cpedants=B9 who jump to correct misuse of English in the media, he uses t=
he<br> argument that public usage is the final court of appeal.<br> <br>
What is not inquired into is how =8Cusage=B9 is to be defined. =A0For examp=
le,<br> English schools once had to make more of a fuss about distinguishing
words<=
br>
(once part of the =A0English examination syllabus, actually called<br>
=8CConfusables=B9 =AD such as the little group =8Cjudicious-judicial=B9,<br=
>
'industrious-industrial', =8Ccontinuous-continual=B9, =8Csensuous-s=
ensual=B9,<br> =8Cceremonial-ceremonious=B9, etc.). =A0Because of this
inclusion in the sy= llabus,<br> very few errors with confusable pairs
appeared in the usage of newspapers,<=
br>
magazines, -- even comics. So it was part of the common =8Cusage=B9. =A0 If=
such<br> discriminations have disappeared, it says more about fashions of
teaching<b=
r>
than anything else.<br>
<br>
Another UK example, occurs in the pronunciation of the letter H: =A0I was<b=
r>
taught in school that its name was =8Caitch=B9 (now still to be heard on th=
e BBC<br> television programme =8CCountdown=B9, a word-game, and also
confirmed by th= e<br> Oxford English Dictionary), but my bank contacts tell
me that they are<br> working for the =8CHaitch SBC Bank=B9, having, no
doubt, been avid viewers = of<br> the Australian soap =8CNeighbours=B9.
=A0Similarly, are our English pupils = to be<br> told that the pronunciation
=8CharASS=B9 is the common English usage and no= t<br>
=8CHARass=B9 because a sufficient number of American cop shows are on Engli=
sh<br> TV? =A0It becomes a question of =8CWhich country=B9s =A0usage?=B9<br>
<br> Take one other of Stephen Fry's examples, the confusion of
'refute&= #39; and<br> 'deny'. =A0 =8CRefute=B9 means BY USING
COUNTERVAILING PROOF, PRODU= CE A CONVINCING<br> ARGUMENT AGAINST
ANOTHER=B9S ASSERTION: =A0 =8Cdeny=B9 means WITHOUT ARGUME= NT, TO<br>
CONTRADICT ANOTHER=B9S ASSERTION. =A0The loss of the distinction between<br=
>
=8Crefute=B9 and =8Cdeny=B9 would be an enfeeblement of the language: =A0I =
read last<br> week in the newspaper that the Irish Sinn Feiner Jerry Adams
has just<br> 'refuted' recent accusations against him, but no
arguments had been= <br> forthcoming from him. =A0Amazing! =A0I would have
very much liked to have r= ead<br> his refutation. =A0What I don't like
about this error is that it seems = to be<br> used by persons uncertain of
their vocabulary WHO ARE TRYING TO USE A BIG<b=
r>
WORD TO SOUND IMPRESSIVE, THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.<br> <br>
One can add that it does not take very long to teach the correct use of the=
<br> apostrophe. =A0Stephen Fry himself appears to be aware of the rules:
=A0he = could<br> not have picked this up from greengrocers' price tags,
could he? =A0Sim= ilarly<br> with 'imply' and 'infer' -- I
was fairly successful in teac= hing the<br> difference with the rhythmic tag
'Speakers and writers imply: =A0hearer= s and<br> readers
infer'.<br> <br> Nor does he seem to have heard of redundancy in
language, and the essential= <br> part it plays in our everyday
communication -- for example, that involved i= n<br> the distinction between
count and mass nouns, subject and verb agreement,<b=
r>
singulars and plurals, and more. =A0'Fewer' and 'less', for=
example, is tied<br> to the count noun/mass noun distinction -- Does one
ever hear anyone say<br=
>
'fewer sand'? =A0As for plurals, one can hear and read in the media=
BOTH<br> 'bacterium' AND 'bacteria', 'criterion' AND
'cr= iteria', 'phenomenon' AND<br> 'phenomena' for
the SINGULAR -- so just what is the common usage? = =A0The fact<br> that no
one says 'radiuses' instead of 'radii' I attribute = to the
fussy<br> pronunciation of the former (though I have heard
'crisises' instead= of<br> 'crises'). =A0Redundancy is fact
disappearing as regards subject an= d verb<br> agreement (e.g. =A0-- heard
this week on BBC radio, 'There's lots o= f planes on<br> the
tarmac', 'All of us objects to it'). =A0But redundancy is b=
adly named<br> because these extra, strictly repetitive clues are there to
ensure that we<=
br>
can pick our way more clearly through the cloud of words we hear, and thus<=
br>
they cannot be summarily jettisoned. =A0The aim of redundancy is to help<br=
>
hearers get the message.<br>
<br>
Do I sense an underlying old-romantic resistance to the teaching of grammar=
<br> here? =A0With all the excellent textbooks now on sale in the U.S.A.
(by<br> Constance Weaver, Martha Kolln, and the like, and the absence of
them in<br=
>
England) I fear that we English are still mired in a self-defeating ideolog=
y<br> which is sustaining class distinctions by which we over here, both
'upp= er-'<br> and 'lower-class', seem to be mesmerized.
=A0An overall appeal to &= #39;usage'<br> conceals both snobbery and its
inversion. =A0I trace the prejudice to the<b=
r>
deeply embedded division in the UK between private and state education, and=
<br> the foundations of that can be traced further. =A0We even had a
CONSERVATIV= E<br> member of parliament this week complaining about the
Prime Minister being<b=
r>
too 'posh' to understand the plight of the poor. =A0I imagine that =
you<br> Americans don't even use the word 'posh'. =A0So we are
'pos= h', are we, if we<br> try to teach apostrophe rules to
working-class children?<br> <br> Edmond Wright<br> <br> <br> Dr. Edmond
Wright<br>
3 Boathouse Court<br>
Trafalgar Road<br>
Cambridge<br>
CB4 1DU<br>
England<br>
<br>
Email: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=
<br>
Website: <a href=3D"http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/</a><br>
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> To join or leave this LISTSERV
list, please visit the list's web interf= ace at:<br>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--f46d0444ef4f339d1c04bed6f364--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:18:01 -0700
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language
---32580766-1205010606-1335734281=:17005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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"Do I sense an underlying old-romantic resistance to the teaching of gramma=
r=0Ahere? "=0A=C2=A0=0AI felt that from Stephen Fry.=0A=C2=A0=0A"So we are =
'posh', are we, if we=0Atry to teach apostrophe rules to working-class chil=
dren?"=0A=C2=A0=0AAnd no, I don't think we are being "posh." I think we are=
doing a disservice to students by not teaching them the correct=C2=A0use o=
f=C2=A0punctuation marks. I=C2=A0had a 75 minute class session devoted excl=
usively to comma usage which my students struggle with. They are also confu=
sed when it comes to apostrophe usage. So now I am a pedant for teaching th=
em about these punctuation marks? They seemed very appreciative that I woul=
d take the time to educate them in these areas. That's fine if people consi=
der me a pedant when it comes to teaching grammar. I'd rather be that than =
someone who is ignorant to the rules of grammar or lacks the knowledge to t=
each students the basics. At the community college where I teach, I am amaz=
ed at the number of PT faculty who do not know what a dangling modifier is =
or who do not point out shifts in person or tense in the Basic Writing clas=
ses that I teach.=0A=C2=A0=0ACarol=0A=C2=A0=0A=0AFrom: Edmond Wright <elw33=
@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>=0ATo: [log in to unmask] =0ASent: Sunday, April 29=
, 2012 2:38 PM=0ASubject: Re: Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language=0A=
=0AStephen Fry's complaint about the complainers about spelling and grammar=
=0Arelies on a dubious assumption.=C2=A0 Like many another who rails at the=
=0A=C5=92pedants=C2=B9 who jump to correct misuse of English in the media, =
he uses the=0Aargument that public usage is the final court of appeal.=0A=
=0AWhat is not inquired into is how =C5=92usage=C2=B9 is to be defined.=C2=
=A0 For example,=0AEnglish schools once had to make more of a fuss about di=
stinguishing words=0A(once part of the=C2=A0 English examination syllabus, =
actually called=0A=C5=92Confusables=C2=B9 =C2=AD such as the little group =
=C5=92judicious-judicial=C2=B9,=0A'industrious-industrial', =C5=92continuou=
s-continual=C2=B9, =C5=92sensuous-sensual=C2=B9,=0A=C5=92ceremonial-ceremon=
ious=C2=B9, etc.).=C2=A0 Because of this inclusion in the syllabus,=0Avery =
few errors with confusable pairs appeared in the usage of newspapers,=0Amag=
azines, -- even comics. So it was part of the common =C5=92usage=C2=B9.=C2=
=A0 If such=0Adiscriminations have disappeared, it says more about fashions=
of teaching=0Athan anything else.=0A=0AAnother UK example, occurs in the p=
ronunciation of the letter H:=C2=A0 I was=0Ataught in school that its name =
was =C5=92aitch=C2=B9 (now still to be heard on the BBC=0Atelevision progra=
mme =C5=92Countdown=C2=B9, a word-game, and also confirmed by the=0AOxford =
English Dictionary), but my bank contacts tell me that they are=0Aworking f=
or the =C5=92Haitch SBC Bank=C2=B9, having, no doubt, been avid viewers of=
=0Athe Australian soap =C5=92Neighbours=C2=B9.=C2=A0 Similarly, are our Eng=
lish pupils to be=0Atold that the pronunciation =C5=92harASS=C2=B9 is the c=
ommon English usage and not=0A=C5=92HARass=C2=B9 because a sufficient numbe=
r of American cop shows are on English=0ATV?=C2=A0 It becomes a question of=
=C5=92Which country=C2=B9s=C2=A0 usage?=C2=B9=0A=0ATake one other of Steph=
en Fry's examples, the confusion of 'refute' and=0A'deny'.=C2=A0 =C5=92Refu=
te=C2=B9 means BY USING COUNTERVAILING PROOF, PRODUCE A CONVINCING=0AARGUME=
NT AGAINST ANOTHER=C2=B9S ASSERTION:=C2=A0 =C5=92deny=C2=B9 means WITHOUT A=
RGUMENT, TO=0ACONTRADICT ANOTHER=C2=B9S ASSERTION.=C2=A0 The loss of the di=
stinction between=0A=C5=92refute=C2=B9 and =C5=92deny=C2=B9 would be an enf=
eeblement of the language:=C2=A0 I read last=0Aweek in the newspaper that t=
he Irish Sinn Feiner Jerry Adams has just=0A'refuted' recent accusations ag=
ainst him, but no arguments had been=0Aforthcoming from him.=C2=A0 Amazing!=
=C2=A0 I would have very much liked to have read=0Ahis refutation.=C2=A0 Wh=
at I don't like about this error is that it seems to be=0Aused by persons u=
ncertain of their vocabulary WHO ARE TRYING TO USE A BIG=0AWORD TO SOUND IM=
PRESSIVE, THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.=0A=0AOne can add that it do=
es not take very long to teach the correct use of the=0Aapostrophe.=C2=A0 S=
tephen Fry himself appears to be aware of the rules:=C2=A0 he could=0Anot h=
ave picked this up from greengrocers' price tags, could he?=C2=A0 Similarly=
=0Awith 'imply' and 'infer' -- I was fairly successful in teaching the=0Adi=
fference with the rhythmic tag 'Speakers and writers imply:=C2=A0 hearers a=
nd=0Areaders infer'.=0A=0ANor does he seem to have heard of redundancy in l=
anguage, and the essential=0Apart it plays in our everyday communication --=
for example, that involved in=0Athe distinction between count and mass nou=
ns, subject and verb agreement,=0Asingulars and plurals, and more.=C2=A0 'F=
ewer' and 'less', for example, is tied=0Ato the count noun/mass noun distin=
ction -- Does one ever hear anyone say=0A'fewer sand'?=C2=A0 As for plurals=
, one can hear and read in the media BOTH=0A'bacterium' AND 'bacteria', 'cr=
iterion' AND 'criteria', 'phenomenon' AND=0A'phenomena' for the SINGULAR --=
so just what is the common usage?=C2=A0 The fact=0Athat no one says 'radiu=
ses' instead of 'radii' I attribute to the fussy=0Apronunciation of the for=
mer (though I have heard 'crisises' instead of=0A'crises').=C2=A0 Redundanc=
y is fact disappearing as regards subject and verb=0Aagreement (e.g.=C2=A0 =
-- heard this week on BBC radio, 'There's lots of planes on=0Athe tarmac', =
'All of us objects to it').=C2=A0 But redundancy is badly named=0Abecause t=
hese extra, strictly repetitive clues are there to ensure that we=0Acan pic=
k our way more clearly through the cloud of words we hear, and thus=0Athey =
cannot be summarily jettisoned.=C2=A0 The aim of redundancy is to help=0Ahe=
arers get the message.=0A=0ADo I sense an underlying old-romantic resistanc=
e to the teaching of grammar=0Ahere?=C2=A0 With all the excellent textbooks=
now on sale in the U.S.A. (by=0AConstance Weaver, Martha Kolln, and the li=
ke, and the absence of them in=0AEngland) I fear that we English are still =
mired in a self-defeating ideology=0Awhich is sustaining class distinctions=
by which we over here, both 'upper-'=0Aand 'lower-class', seem to be mesme=
rized.=C2=A0 An overall appeal to 'usage'=0Aconceals both snobbery and its =
inversion.=C2=A0 I trace the prejudice to the=0Adeeply embedded division in=
the UK between private and state education, and=0Athe foundations of that =
can be traced further.=C2=A0 We even had a CONSERVATIVE=0Amember of parliam=
ent this week complaining about the Prime Minister being=0Atoo 'posh' to un=
derstand the plight of the poor.=C2=A0 I imagine that you=0AAmericans don't=
even use the word 'posh'.=C2=A0 So we are 'posh', are we, if we=0Atry to t=
each apostrophe rules to working-class children?=0A=0AEdmond Wright=0A=0A=
=0ADr. Edmond Wright=0A3 Boathouse Court=0ATrafalgar Road=0ACambridge=0ACB4=
1DU=0AEngland=0A=0AEmail: [log in to unmask]: http://people.=
pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/=0APhone [00 44] (0)1223 350256=0A=0ATo join or leave t=
his LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:=0A=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or lea=
ve the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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---32580766-1205010606-1335734281=:17005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN=
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">"Do I sense an underlying old-romantic resistance to=
the teaching of grammar<BR style=3D"RIGHT: auto">here? "</SPAN></div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><FONT face=3D"Courie= r
New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif">I felt that from Stephen Fry=
.</FONT></SPAN></div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT:
auto"><FONT face=3D"Courie= r New, courier, monaco, monospace,
sans-serif"></FONT></SPAN> </div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto">"So we are 'posh', a=
re we, if we<BR>try to teach apostrophe rules to working-class children?"</=
SPAN></div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><FONT style=3D"RIGHT=
: auto" face=3D"Courier New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif">And no=
, I don't think we are being "posh." I think we are doing a disservice to s=
tudents by not teaching them the correct use of punctuation marks=
. I had a 75 minute class session devoted exclusively to comma usage w=
hich my students struggle with. They are also confused when it comes to apo=
strophe usage. So now I am a pedant for teaching them about these punctuati=
on marks? They seemed very appreciative that I would take the time to educa=
te them in these areas. That's fine if people consider me a pedant when it =
comes to teaching grammar. I'd rather be that than someone who is ignorant =
to the rules of grammar or lacks the knowledge to teach students the basics=
. At the community college where I teach, I am amazed at the number of PT f=
aculty who do not know what a dangling modifier is or who do not point out
shifts in person or tense in the Basic Writing classes that I teach.</FONT=
></SPAN></div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><FONT face=3D"Courie=
r New"></FONT></SPAN> </div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN
style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><FONT style=3D"RIGHT=
: auto" face=3D"Courier New">Carol<VAR id=3Dyui-ie-cursor></VAR></FONT></SP=
AN></div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div></SPAN>
<div><BR></div> <DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SI=
ZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial> <DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM:
#ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; P=
ADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PAD=
DING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; B=
ORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=3Dhr readonly=3D"true"=
contenteditable=3D"false"></DIV><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:=
</SPAN></B> Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask] <BR><B><SPAN=
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, April 29, 2012 2:38 P=
M<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Stephen F=
ry Kinetic Typography - Language<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>Stephen Fry's complain=
t about the complainers about spelling and grammar<BR>relies on a dubious a=
ssumption. Like many another who rails at the<BR>=C5=92pedants=C2=B9 =
who jump to correct misuse of English in the media, he uses the<BR>argument=
that public usage is the final court of appeal.<BR><BR>What is not inquired
into is how =C5=
=92usage=C2=B9 is to be defined. For example,<BR>English schools once=
had to make more of a fuss about distinguishing words<BR>(once part of the=
English examination syllabus, actually called<BR>=C5=92Confusables=
=C2=B9 ­ such as the little group =C5=92judicious-judicial=C2=B9,<BR>'i=
ndustrious-industrial', =C5=92continuous-continual=C2=B9, =C5=92sensuous-se=
nsual=C2=B9,<BR>=C5=92ceremonial-ceremonious=C2=B9, etc.). Because of=
this inclusion in the syllabus,<BR>very few errors with confusable pairs a=
ppeared in the usage of newspapers,<BR>magazines, -- even comics. So it was=
part of the common =C5=92usage=C2=B9. If such<BR>discriminations hav=
e disappeared, it says more about fashions of teaching<BR>than anything els=
e.<BR><BR>Another UK example, occurs in the pronunciation of the letter H:&=
nbsp; I was<BR>taught in school that its name was =C5=92aitch=C2=B9 (now st=
ill to be heard on the BBC<BR>television programme =C5=92Countdown=C2=B9, a
word-game, and also confirmed by the<BR>Oxford En= glish Dictionary), but my
bank contacts tell me that they are<BR>working fo= r the =C5=92Haitch SBC
Bank=C2=B9, having, no doubt, been avid viewers of<B=
R>the Australian soap =C5=92Neighbours=C2=B9. Similarly, are our
R>Engl=
ish pupils to be<BR>told that the pronunciation =C5=92harASS=C2=B9 is the c=
ommon English usage and not<BR>=C5=92HARass=C2=B9 because a sufficient numb=
er of American cop shows are on English<BR>TV? It becomes a question =
of =C5=92Which country=C2=B9s usage?=C2=B9<BR><BR>Take one other of S=
tephen Fry's examples, the confusion of 'refute' and<BR>'deny'. =C5=
=92Refute=C2=B9 means BY USING COUNTERVAILING PROOF, PRODUCE A CONVINCING<B=
R>ARGUMENT AGAINST ANOTHER=C2=B9S ASSERTION: =C5=92deny=C2=B9
R>means W=
ITHOUT ARGUMENT, TO<BR>CONTRADICT ANOTHER=C2=B9S ASSERTION. The loss =
of the distinction between<BR>=C5=92refute=C2=B9 and =C5=92deny=C2=B9 would=
be an enfeeblement of the language: I read last<BR>week in the newsp=
aper that the Irish Sinn Feiner Jerry Adams has just<BR>'refuted' recent
accusations= against him, but no arguments had been<BR>forthcoming from
him. Amaz= ing! I would have very much liked to have read<BR>his
refutation.&nbs= p; What I don't like about this error is that it seems to
be<BR>used by per= sons uncertain of their vocabulary WHO ARE TRYING TO USE
A BIG<BR>WORD TO S= OUND IMPRESSIVE, THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT
MEANS.<BR><BR>One can add t= hat it does not take very long to teach the
correct use of the<BR>apostroph= e. Stephen Fry himself appears to be
aware of the rules: he cou= ld<BR>not have picked this up from
greengrocers' price tags, could he? = ; Similarly<BR>with 'imply' and
'infer' -- I was fairly successful in teach= ing the<BR>difference with the
rhythmic tag 'Speakers and writers imply:&nb= sp; hearers and<BR>readers
infer'.<BR><BR>Nor does he seem to have heard of= redundancy in language,
and the essential<BR>part it plays in our everyday communication -- for
example, that involved in<BR>the distinction= between count and mass nouns,
subject and verb agreement,<BR>singulars and= plurals, and more.
'Fewer' and 'less', for example, is tied<BR>to th= e count noun/mass noun
distinction -- Does one ever hear anyone say<BR>'few= er sand'? As for
plurals, one can hear and read in the media BOTH<BR>= 'bacterium' AND
'bacteria', 'criterion' AND 'criteria', 'phenomenon' AND<BR=
>'phenomena' for the SINGULAR -- so just what is the common usage?
>Th=
e fact<BR>that no one says 'radiuses' instead of 'radii' I attribute to the=
fussy<BR>pronunciation of the former (though I have heard 'crisises' inste=
ad of<BR>'crises'). Redundancy is fact disappearing as regards subjec=
t and verb<BR>agreement (e.g. -- heard this week on BBC radio, 'There=
's lots of planes on<BR>the tarmac', 'All of us objects to it'). But =
redundancy is badly named<BR>because these extra, strictly repetitive clues
are there to ensure that we<BR>can pick our way more clea= rly through the
cloud of words we hear, and thus<BR>they cannot be summaril= y
jettisoned. The aim of redundancy is to help<BR>hearers get the mes=
sage.<BR><BR>Do I sense an underlying old-romantic resistance to the teachi=
ng of grammar<BR>here? With all the excellent textbooks now on sale i=
n the U.S.A. (by<BR>Constance Weaver, Martha Kolln, and the like, and the a=
bsence of them in<BR>England) I fear that we English are still mired in a s=
elf-defeating ideology<BR>which is sustaining class distinctions by which w=
e over here, both 'upper-'<BR>and 'lower-class', seem to be mesmerized.&nbs=
p; An overall appeal to 'usage'<BR>conceals both snobbery and its inversion=
. I trace the prejudice to the<BR>deeply embedded division in the UK =
between private and state education, and<BR>the foundations of that can be =
traced further. We even had a CONSERVATIVE<BR>member of parliament
this week complaining about the Prime Minister being<BR>too 'po= sh' to
understand the plight of the poor. I imagine that you<BR>Ameri= cans
don't even use the word 'posh'. So we are 'posh', are we, if we<=
BR>try to teach apostrophe rules to working-class
BR>children?<BR><BR>Edmond W=
right<BR><BR><BR>Dr. Edmond Wright<BR>3 Boathouse Court<BR>Trafalgar Road<B=
R>Cambridge<BR>CB4 1DU<BR>England<BR><BR>Email: <A
R>href=3D"mailto:elw33@her=
mes.cam.ac.uk" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
c.uk</A><BR>Website: <A href=3D"http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/" target=
=3D_blank>http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/</A><BR>Phone [00 44] (0)1223 3=
50256<BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w=
eb interface at:<BR> <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/arc=
hives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=
tml</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site=
at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR><BR><BR>=
</DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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<p>
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---32580766-1205010606-1335734281=:17005--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 27 Apr 2012 to 29 Apr 2012 (#2012-41)
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