No, as a phonetician, I am familiar with "minimal pairs." When I was
enrolled at UF in 1963 as a student in a graduate summer French institute,
the professor asked whether anyone knew what a phoneme was. I was the only
one to raise my hand. He nodded and I recited that a phoneme was "a
selectional class of complementarily distributed, phonetically similar, and
congruently patterned sound-types; it contrasts and is mutually exclusive
with every similar class in the language, with some or all of which it
enters into juxtapositional classes."
He quickly responded, "No! A phoneme is a minimal pair."
I barely passed the class even though I had earned a certificate in French
phonetics from API [IPA] in 1956.
I am guessing that, inasmuch as only Herb has understood my question, a
specific term for a homographic minimal pair that makes a semantic and
grammatical difference probably does not exist. I do appreciate all of
the comments though.
I just realized that I do not know how to use Reed-Kellog to diagram
accurately "My grandfather used to make 'moonshine' from wild plums."
Scott
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:49:29 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
--0016e64ec4cce89905048b0ea78d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Scott,
You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the
phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
besides being a minimal pair (*homographic minimal pair*). The third, full
verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (*homophonic*). I
think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with *have. *The
pronunciation with F, viz. S (*has*), has deontic meaning, to contrast with
the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, viz. Z
(*has*), but different stress possibilities. These two verbs *use* and *
have* are parallel in these ways, different from *want *or *ought
(owe),*etc., that show other tendencies and patterns.
Bruce
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical
> word
> pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
> grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite
specifiuc
> if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
> speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month
> asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not
Dixie.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> anal=
> ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonological=
> ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/
> =
> either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing
> =
> from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
> "Wanna=
> ," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you
> wa=
> nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in these
> =
> as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in
> f=
> ormal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU <http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=20
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
>
> > Scott,
> >
> > An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> > analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> > Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> /t/
> > and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
> and
> > nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> > found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> say
> > "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
> > "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that
a
> > stretch even in formal English.
> >
> > Herb
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >
> > Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> > distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >
> > My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >
> > My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> >
> > I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >
> > P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >
> > Scott Catledge
> >
> > *****************************
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV
> say=
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
> "=
> corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with
> them."=
> =A0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=A0 I think that when
> there=
> are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language
> u=
> sers=A0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning,
> a=
> nd manage to find them.=A0 </div>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Bruce<br><br></div>
> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE,
> HERBER=
> T F <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> ">[log in to unmask]
> edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px
> 0.8ex=
> ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to
> wha=
> t I sent earlier. =A0"Hafta," "gonna," and
> "wanna&=
> quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
> "=
> ;to." =A0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to
> /v=
> / before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the
> al=
> veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =A0Both
> pronu=
> nciations are found. =A0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from
> &=
> quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but
> not=
> "Who do you wanna go." =A0You may substitute "whom"
> in=
> these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch
> ev=
> en in formal English.<br>
> <br>Herb<br>
> <div class=3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the
> Teac=
> hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
> "=
> >[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July
> 06=
> , 2010 8:27 AM<br>
> To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> </a=
> ><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
> <div>
> <div></div>
> <div class=3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the
> s/=
> z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following
> sentence=
> s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild
> plums.=
> <br>
> <br>My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I
> u=
> se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =A0He
> =
> called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>
> Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or
> leave=
> this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=A0
=
> =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D"_bl=
> ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web
> s=
> ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/
> </a><=
> br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web=
> interface at:<br>
> =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
> target=3D=
> "_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select
> &q=
> uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a
> hre=
> f=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
> From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> --0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing
to,"
> but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> > something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected"
himself
> to
> > "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> > formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that
> start
> > to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> > correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> >
> >> Scott,
> >>
> >> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> >> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> >> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
> /t/
> >> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar
tap
> and
> >> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> >> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
> say
> >> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may
substitute
> >> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that
> a
> >> stretch even in formal English.
> >>
> >> Herb
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
> >>
> >> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> >> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
> >>
> >> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
> >>
> >> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
> >>
> >> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
> >>
> >> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
> >>
> >> Scott Catledge
> >>
> >> *****************************
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> >> at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> >> at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >
> >
>
<div>Scott, </div>
<div>You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate th=
e phoneme inventory of a language.=A0 These two words are also homographs, =
besides being a minimal pair (<strong>homographic minimal pair</strong>).=
=A0 The third, full verb meaning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as wel=
l (<strong>homophonic</strong>).=A0 I think I pointed out the same phenomen=
on going on with <em><strong>have.=A0 </strong></em>The pronunciation with =
F, viz.=A0S (<em><strong>has</strong></em>),=A0has deontic meaning, to cont=
rast with the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings, which both have=
V, viz.=A0Z (<em><strong>has</strong></em>), but different stress possibil=
ities.=A0 These two verbs <em><strong>use</strong></em> and <em><strong>hav=
e</strong></em> are parallel in these ways, different from <em><strong>want=
</strong></em>or <em><strong>ought (owe),</strong></em> etc., that show ot=
her tendencies and patterns.=A0 </div>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:58:11 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C35FDA9F3EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Webmail bdespain
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 4:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
Scott,
You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the pho=
neme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs, besides=
being a minimal pair (homographic minimal pair). The third, full verb mea=
ning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (homophonic). I think I p=
ointed out the same phenomenon going on with have. The pronunciation with =
F, viz. S (has), has deontic meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect =
aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, viz. Z (has), but differen=
t stress possibilities. These two verbs use and have are parallel in these=
ways, different from want or ought (owe), etc., that show other tendencies=
and patterns.
Bruce
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
com>> wrote:
Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical wor=
d
pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite specifiuc
if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month
asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not Dixie.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behal=
f Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)
2. For Grammar Teachers only
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
Scott Catledge
*****************************
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400
From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]<mailto:brett.reynolds@HUM=
BER.CA>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D
wrote:
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
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Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the wor=
d "pro=3D
bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully so, si=
nce =3D
they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard of=
S=3D
tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does not=
belong in=3D
the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word, structurally?=3DA0=
=3D0A=3D
=3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.=
brad.05jul=3D
y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom: "O'Sulli=
van, Brian=3D
P" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>=3D0ATo: ATEG@LISTSE=
RV.MUOHIO.EDU<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D0ASent: Mon, July=3D
5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA0=3D0=
AI would p=3D
robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe =3D0A=
he=3D
had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do so. :)=
=3D
=3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D0Abradvines2@=
YAHOO.CO<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: [log in to unmask]<mailto:A=
[log in to unmask]>=3D0ASubject: F=3D
or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be =
a comple=3D
te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a N=
or=3D
man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days later,=
I r=3D
eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks for the=
m=3D
ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing th=
e =3D
problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue =3D0Apage?"=
=3D0A=3D
=3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
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--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></=
he=3D
ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size=
:1=3D
0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: =
12=3D
pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian, </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3=
D2> =3D
;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a linguist, aren't you? The=
tip=3D
-off is the word "probably". Linguists can never make up their minds, =
=3D
rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather than=
=3D
the standard of Standard English grammar. </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FON=
T =3D
size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>If the word '=
have' =3D
does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word, struct=
=3D
urally? </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D=
0A<DIV=3D
><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.</FONT><=
/D=3D
IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2=
>.brad.0=3D
5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV><FONT si=
ze=3D
=3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A=
<DIV><B><SPAN =3D
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <bp=
os=3D
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>><BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-W=
EIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN styl=
e=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D
AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject=
:<=3D
/SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably hav=
=3D
e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been repo=
=3D
rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so. :)<BR><BR>Brian<=
=3D
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<DIV>From: </=
FO=3D
NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" r=
el=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D
mailto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"><FONT=
size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><=3D
/FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010<BR>To: </FONT><A=
h=3D
ref=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" =
rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D
lto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>">=
<FONT size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]
.EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For Grammar Teachers only<BR><=
BR=3D
>Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar teacher until yo=
=3D
u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this mornin=
=3D
g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another automated re=
=3D
sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the delay in =
=3D
response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported? Di=
=3D
d you check our known issue page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV></FO=
=3D
NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A </body></html>
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<p>
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--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--
-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used as a semi-auxili=
=3D
ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of "use=
=3D
" with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciation, but the=
=3D
se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is that as=
=3D
"used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system in the 14th c.=
=3D
it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reduction th=
=3D
at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduction o=
=3D
f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use but not in its lexic=
=3D
al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of "use=
=3D
d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, where /@/ represen=
=3D
ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation and t=
=3D
hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term for w=
=3D
hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
OHIO.EDU<http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Importance: Low
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar wro=
=3D
te:
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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=3D
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Scott,
An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are anal=
=3D
ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to." Phonological=
=3D
ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/ =
=3D
either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing =
=3D
from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found. "Wanna=
=3D
," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wa=
=3D
nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in these =
=3D
as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in f=
=3D
ormal English.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
OHIO.EDU<http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
Scott Catledge
*****************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
=3D
at:
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
OM>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself t=
o
"like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that start
to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
Bruce
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]<mailt=
o:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t=
/
> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
and
> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can sa=
y
> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a
> stretch even in formal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of S=
cott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say=
=3D
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "=
=3D
corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with them."=
=3D
=3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when t=
here=3D
are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language u=
=3D
sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning,=
a=3D
nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
<div>=3DA0</div>
<div>Bruce<br><br></div>
<div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERB=
ER=3D
T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:hst=
[log in to unmask]>">[log in to unmask]
edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex=3D
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to w=
ha=3D
t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wann=
a&=3D
quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
=3D
;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to =
/v=3D
/ before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the al=
=3D
veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both pro=
nu=3D
nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from=
&=3D
quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but not=
=3D
"Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom" =
in=3D
these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch ev=
=3D
en in formal English.<br>
<br>Herb<br>
<div class=3D3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Te=
ac=3D
hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
U<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"=3D
>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On Behalf O=
f Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July 06=3D
, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
O.EDU>">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a=3D
><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the =
s/=3D
z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentence=
=3D
s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.=
=3D
<br>
<br>My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I u=
=3D
se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =3DA0H=
e =3D
called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>
Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave=
=3D
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=3DA0=
=3D
=3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D=
3D"_bl=3D
ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
=3D
ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/<=
/a><=3D
br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
=3D
interface at:<br>
=3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" tar=
get=3D3D=3D
"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select &q=
=3D
uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a hre=
=3D
f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
OM>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing to,"
but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
> It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself
to
> "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that star=
t
> to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
>> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
>> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
/t/
>> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
and
>> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
>> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
say
>> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
>> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that =
a
>> stretch even in formal English.
>>
>> Herb
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of =
Scott
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>>
>> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
>> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>>
>> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>>
>> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>>
>> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>>
>> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>>
>> Scott Catledge
>>
>> *****************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
>
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at:
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--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing=
=3D
to," but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.=3DA0=
<=3D
br><br>
<div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespa=
in=3D
<span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:b=
[log in to unmask]>">bdespain@bu=3D
rgoyne.com<http://rgoyne.com/></a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex=3D
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">
<div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say=
=3D
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "=
=3D
corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with them."=
=3D
=3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when t=
here=3D
are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language u=
=3D
sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning,=
a=3D
nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
<div>=3DA0</div>
<div>Bruce<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D3D"h5">
<div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERB=
ER=3D
T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:hst=
[log in to unmask]>" target=3D3D"_bl=3D
ank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex=3D
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to w=
ha=3D
t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wann=
a&=3D
quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
=3D
;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to =
/v=3D
/ before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the al=
=3D
veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both pro=
nu=3D
nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from=
&=3D
quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but not=
=3D
"Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom" =
in=3D
these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch ev=
=3D
en in formal English.<br>
<br>Herb<br>
<div>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of Engli=
=3D
sh Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG=
@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>" target=3D3D"_b=3D
lank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On Beh=
alf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, Ju=3D
ly 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
O.EDU>" target=3D3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=3D
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU<http://serv.muohio.edu/></a><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PER=
FECT QUESTION<br><br></di=3D
v>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>di=
=3D
stinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br><br>My =
=3D
grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br><br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I use a=
=3D
n /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =3DA0He ca=
ll=3D
ed his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>Scott=
=3D
Catledge<br>
<br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
=3D
t, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3=
D"http=3D
://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
es/ateg.html>" target=3D3D"_blank">http://listser<http://listser/>=3D
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<http://v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html></a>=
<br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
=3D
ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/<=
/a><=3D
br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
=3D
interface at:<br>
=3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" tar=
get=3D3D=3D
"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select &q=
=3D
uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a hre=
=3D
f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead--
-----------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
********************************************************
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at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font siz=
e=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Assembly=
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Webmail bdespain<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 10, 201=
0 4:49
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: ATEG Digest - 5=
Jul
2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>Scott, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate=
the
phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
besides being a minimal pair (<strong><b><font face=3D"Times New Roman">hom=
ographic
minimal pair</font></b></strong>). The third, full verb meaning, of
course, has the Z pronunciation as well (<strong><b><font face=3D"Times New=
Roman">homophonic</font></b></strong>).
I think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with <strong><b><i><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>have. </sp=
an></font></i></b></strong>The
pronunciation with F, viz. S (<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man"><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>has</span></font></i></b></strong>), has d=
eontic
meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings,
which both have V, viz. Z (<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman=
"><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>has</span></font></i></b></strong>), but differ=
ent
stress possibilities. These two verbs <strong><b><i><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>use</span></font=
></i></b></strong>
and <strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:=
italic'>have</span></font></i></b></strong>
are parallel in these ways, different from <strong><b><i><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>want </span></fo=
nt></i></b></strong>or
<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:ital=
ic'>ought
(owe),</span></font></i></b></strong> etc., that show other tendencies and
patterns. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included
identical word<br>
pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's<br>
grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite specifiuc=
<br>
if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native<=
br>
speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month<b=
r>
asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from Califor=
nia--not
Dixie.<br>
<br>
Scott Catledge<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
U</a>]
On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system<br>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)<br>
<br>
There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.<br>
<br>
Topics of the day:<br>
<br>
1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)<br>
2. For Grammar Teachers only<br>
<br>
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<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400<br>
From: Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
<br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br>
<br>
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
<br>
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors love=
d
it.<br>
<br>
Scott Catledge<br>
<br>
*****************************<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400<br>
From: Brett Reynolds <<a href=3D"mailto:brett.reynolds@HUMB=
ER.CA">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D=
<br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Brett<br>
<br>
-----------------------<br>
Brett Reynolds<br>
English Language Centre<br>
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning<br>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br=
>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700<br>
From: Brad Johnston <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only<br>
<br>
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1<br>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
<br>
Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the wor=
d
"pro=3D<br>
bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully s=
o, since
=3D<br>
they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard of=
S=3D<br>
tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does not=
belong in=3D<br>
the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word, structurally?=
=3DA0=3D0A=3D<br>
=3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.=
brad.05jul=3D<br>
y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom: "O'=
Sullivan,
Brian=3D<br>
P" <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
EDU</a>>=3D0ATo:
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D=
0ASent:
Mon, July=3D<br>
5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA=
0=3D0AI would
p=3D<br>
robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe
=3D0Ahe=3D<br>
had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do s=
o.
:)=3D<br>
=3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D0ASubject:
F=3D<br>
or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be =
a comple=3D<br>
te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a N=
or=3D<br>
man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days later,=
I r=3D<br>
eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks fo=
r the
m=3D<br>
ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing th=
e =3D<br>
problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue
=3D0Apage?"=3D0A=3D<br>
=3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
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p://ateg.org/</a><br>
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528<br>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1<br>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
<br>
<html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- =
DIV
{margin:0px;} --></style></he=3D<br>
ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:1=3D<br>
0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-se=
rif;
FONT-SIZE: 12=3D<br>
pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian,
</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>&nbsp=
=3D<br>
;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a l=
inguist,
aren't you? The tip=3D<br>
-off is the word "probably". Linguists can never&nbsp;make up
their minds, =3D<br>
rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather than=
=3D<br>
the standard of Standard English
grammar.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT =3D<br>
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>If the&nbsp;word 'have' =3D<br>
does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word, struct=
=3D<br>
urally?&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV=3D<br>
><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
me.</FONT></D=3D<br>
IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>.brad.0=3D<br>
5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D<br>
=3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR
SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A<DIV><B><SPAN =3D<br>
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
"O'Sullivan, Brian P" &lt;bpos=3D<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;<BR>&=
lt;B><SPAN
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D<br=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]<=
/a><BR><B><SPAN
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D<br>
AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:<=3D<br>
/SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers
only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably hav=3D<br>
e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been
repo=3D<br>
rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
:)<BR><BR>Brian<=3D<br>
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<=
;DIV>From:&nbsp;</FO=3D<br>
NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">b=
[log in to unmask]</a>"
rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D<br>
mailto=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">bradvines2@=
YAHOO.COM</a>"><FONT
size=3D3D2><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]<=
/a><=3D<br>
/FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05,
2010<BR>To: </FONT><A h=3D<br>
ref=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG@LISTS=
ERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>"
rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D<br>
lto=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG@LISTS=
ERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>"><FONT
size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<br>
.EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For Gr=
ammar
Teachers only<BR><BR=3D<br>
>Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar
teacher until yo=3D<br>
u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this mornin=
=3D<br>
g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another
automated re=3D<br>
sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the dela=
y in
=3D<br>
response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported? Di=
=3D<br>
d you check our known issue
page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV&=
gt;</FO=3D<br>
NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A
</body></html><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
br>
at:<br>
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<p><br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><br>
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400<br>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used a=
s a
semi-auxili=3D<br>
ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of
"use=3D<br>
" with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciati=
on,
but the=3D<br>
se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is th=
at
as=3D<br>
"used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system=
in
the 14th c.=3D<br>
it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reducti=
on
th=3D<br>
at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduct=
ion
o=3D<br>
f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use =
but
not in its lexic=3D<br>
al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of
"use=3D<br>
d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, whe=
re
/@/ represen=3D<br>
ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation =
and
t=3D<br>
hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term =
for
w=3D<br>
hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
<a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of B=
rett
Reynolds<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
Importance: Low<br>
<br>
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar wro=
=3D<br>
te:<br>
<br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Brett<br>
<br>
-----------------------<br>
Brett Reynolds<br>
English Language Centre<br>
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning<br>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br=
>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
=3D<br>
at:<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400<br>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
Scott,<br>
<br>
An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna,&q=
uot;
and "wanna" are anal=3D<br>
ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
Phonological=3D<br>
ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/ =
=3D<br>
either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing =
=3D<br>
from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
"Wanna=3D<br>
," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say
"Who do you wa=3D<br>
nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substit=
ute
"whom" in these =3D<br>
as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in f=
=3D<br>
ormal English.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
<a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of S=
cott<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
<br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20<br>
<br>
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
<br>
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors love=
d
it.<br>
<br>
Scott Catledge<br>
<br>
*****************************<br>
<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600<br>
From: Webmail bdespain <<a href=3D"mailto:bdespain@BURGOYNE=
.COM">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say<br>
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
"corrected" himself to<br>
"like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived=
as
a less<br>
formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that s=
tart<br>
to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences<br>
correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.<br>
<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> Scott,<br>
><br>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta,"
"gonna," and "wanna" are<br>
> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
"to."<br>
> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/
before /t/<br>
> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar t=
ap<br>
and<br>
> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciatio=
ns
are<br>
> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from
"wanta" in that we can say<br>
> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go.&quo=
t;
You may substitute<br>
> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but =
I
find that a<br>
> stretch even in formal English.<br>
><br>
> Herb<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<br>
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<p>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:01:18 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C35FDA9F4EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A minor point, but deontic "has" devoices like "have": [hiaest@go] vs. [hi=
aeztrAbl]. However, the devoicing doesn't carry over to the past. "He had=
to go" and "he had trouble" both have /d/.
Herb
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Webmail bdespain
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 4:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
Scott,
You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate the pho=
neme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs, besides=
being a minimal pair (homographic minimal pair). The third, full verb mea=
ning, of course, has the Z pronunciation as well (homophonic). I think I p=
ointed out the same phenomenon going on with have. The pronunciation with =
F, viz. S (has), has deontic meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect =
aspect or full verb meanings, which both have V, viz. Z (has), but differen=
t stress possibilities. These two verbs use and have are parallel in these=
ways, different from want or ought (owe), etc., that show other tendencies=
and patterns.
Bruce
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
com>> wrote:
Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical wor=
d
pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite specifiuc
if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month
asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not Dixie.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behal=
f Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)
2. For Grammar Teachers only
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
Scott Catledge
*****************************
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400
From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]<mailto:brett.reynolds@HUM=
BER.CA>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D
wrote:
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the wor=
d "pro=3D
bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully so, si=
nce =3D
they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard of=
S=3D
tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does not=
belong in=3D
the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word, structurally?=3DA0=
=3D0A=3D
=3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.=
brad.05jul=3D
y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom: "O'Sulli=
van, Brian=3D
P" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>=3D0ATo: ATEG@LISTSE=
RV.MUOHIO.EDU<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D0ASent: Mon, July=3D
5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA0=3D0=
AI would p=3D
robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe =3D0A=
he=3D
had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do so. :)=
=3D
=3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D0Abradvines2@=
YAHOO.CO<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: [log in to unmask]<mailto:A=
[log in to unmask]>=3D0ASubject: F=3D
or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be =
a comple=3D
te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a N=
or=3D
man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days later,=
I r=3D
eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks for the=
m=3D
ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing th=
e =3D
problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue =3D0Apage?"=
=3D0A=3D
=3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
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--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></=
he=3D
ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size=
:1=3D
0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: =
12=3D
pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian, </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3=
D2> =3D
;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a linguist, aren't you? The=
tip=3D
-off is the word "probably". Linguists can never make up their minds, =
=3D
rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather than=
=3D
the standard of Standard English grammar. </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FON=
T =3D
size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>If the word '=
have' =3D
does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word, struct=
=3D
urally? </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D=
0A<DIV=3D
><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.</FONT><=
/D=3D
IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2=
>.brad.0=3D
5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2> </FONT></DIV><FONT si=
ze=3D
=3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A=
<DIV><B><SPAN =3D
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <bp=
os=3D
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>><BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-W=
EIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN styl=
e=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D
AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject=
:<=3D
/SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably hav=
=3D
e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been repo=
=3D
rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so. :)<BR><BR>Brian<=
=3D
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<DIV>From: </=
FO=3D
NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" r=
el=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D
mailto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"><FONT=
size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><=3D
/FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010<BR>To: </FONT><A=
h=3D
ref=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" =
rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D
lto=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>">=
<FONT size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]
.EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For Grammar Teachers only<BR><=
BR=3D
>Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar teacher until yo=
=3D
u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this mornin=
=3D
g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another automated re=
=3D
sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the delay in =
=3D
response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported? Di=
=3D
d you check our known issue page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV></FO=
=3D
NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A </body></html>
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--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--
-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used as a semi-auxili=
=3D
ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of "use=
=3D
" with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciation, but the=
=3D
se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is that as=
=3D
"used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system in the 14th c.=
=3D
it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reduction th=
=3D
at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduction o=
=3D
f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use but not in its lexic=
=3D
al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of "use=
=3D
d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, where /@/ represen=
=3D
ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation and t=
=3D
hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term for w=
=3D
hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
OHIO.EDU<http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Importance: Low
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar wro=
=3D
te:
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
=3D
at:
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Scott,
An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are anal=
=3D
ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to." Phonological=
=3D
ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/ =
=3D
either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing =
=3D
from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found. "Wanna=
=3D
," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wa=
=3D
nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in these =
=3D
as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in f=
=3D
ormal English.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=3D
OHIO.EDU<http://ohio.edu/>] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
Scott Catledge
*****************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
=3D
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
OM>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself t=
o
"like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that start
to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
Bruce
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]<mailt=
o:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t=
/
> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
and
> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can sa=
y
> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a
> stretch even in formal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of S=
cott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say=
=3D
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "=
=3D
corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with them."=
=3D
=3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when t=
here=3D
are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language u=
=3D
sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning,=
a=3D
nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
<div>=3DA0</div>
<div>Bruce<br><br></div>
<div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERB=
ER=3D
T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:hst=
[log in to unmask]>">[log in to unmask]
edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex=3D
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to w=
ha=3D
t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wann=
a&=3D
quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
=3D
;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to =
/v=3D
/ before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the al=
=3D
veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both pro=
nu=3D
nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from=
&=3D
quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but not=
=3D
"Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom" =
in=3D
these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch ev=
=3D
en in formal English.<br>
<br>Herb<br>
<div class=3D3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Te=
ac=3D
hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
U<mailto:[log in to unmask]>"=3D
>[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On Behalf O=
f Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July 06=3D
, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
O.EDU>">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a=3D
><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the =
s/=3D
z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentence=
=3D
s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.=
=3D
<br>
<br>My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I u=
=3D
se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =3DA0H=
e =3D
called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>
Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave=
=3D
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=3DA0=
=3D
=3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D=
3D"_bl=3D
ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
=3D
ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/<=
/a><=3D
br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
=3D
interface at:<br>
=3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" tar=
get=3D3D=3D
"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select &q=
=3D
uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a hre=
=3D
f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
-----------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
OM>>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing to,"
but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
> It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself
to
> "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that star=
t
> to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
>> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
>> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
/t/
>> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
and
>> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
>> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
say
>> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
>> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that =
a
>> stretch even in formal English.
>>
>> Herb
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of =
Scott
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>>
>> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
>> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>>
>> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>>
>> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>>
>> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>>
>> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>>
>> Scott Catledge
>>
>> *****************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
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Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing=
=3D
to," but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.=3DA0=
<=3D
br><br>
<div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespa=
in=3D
<span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:b=
[log in to unmask]>">bdespain@bu=3D
rgoyne.com<http://rgoyne.com/></a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex=3D
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">
<div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say=
=3D
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "=
=3D
corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with them."=
=3D
=3DA0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=3DA0 I think that when t=
here=3D
are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language u=
=3D
sers=3DA0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning,=
a=3D
nd manage to find them.=3DA0 </div>
<div>=3DA0</div>
<div>Bruce<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D3D"h5">
<div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERB=
ER=3D
T F <span dir=3D3D"ltr"><<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:hst=
[log in to unmask]>" target=3D3D"_bl=3D
ank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex=3D
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to w=
ha=3D
t I sent earlier. =3DA0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wann=
a&=3D
quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
=3D
;to." =3DA0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to =
/v=3D
/ before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the al=
=3D
veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =3DA0Both pro=
nu=3D
nciations are found. =3DA0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from=
&=3D
quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but not=
=3D
"Who do you wanna go." =3DA0You may substitute "whom" =
in=3D
these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch ev=
=3D
en in formal English.<br>
<br>Herb<br>
<div>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of Engli=
=3D
sh Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG=
@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>" target=3D3D"_b=3D
lank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]></a>] On Beh=
alf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, Ju=3D
ly 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
O.EDU>" target=3D3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=3D
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU<http://serv.muohio.edu/></a><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PER=
FECT QUESTION<br><br></di=3D
v>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>di=
=3D
stinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br><br>My =
=3D
grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br><br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I use a=
=3D
n /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =3DA0He ca=
ll=3D
ed his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>Scott=
=3D
Catledge<br>
<br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
=3D
t, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3=
D"http=3D
://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
es/ateg.html>" target=3D3D"_blank">http://listser<http://listser/>=3D
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<http://v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html></a>=
<br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
=3D
ite at <a href=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/<=
/a><=3D
br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
=3D
interface at:<br>
=3DA0 =3DA0 <a href=3D3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" tar=
get=3D3D=3D
"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select &q=
=3D
uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a hre=
=3D
f=3D3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead--
-----------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
********************************************************
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A minor point, but deontic “has&=
#8221;
devoices like “have”: [hiaest@go] vs. [hiaeztrAbl]. =
However, the
devoicing doesn’t carry over to the past. “He had to go&#=
8221; and
“he had trouble” both have /d/.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font siz=
e=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Assembly=
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Webmail bdespain<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 10, 201=
0 4:49
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: ATEG Digest - 5=
Jul
2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>Scott, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>You may be thinking of minimal pairs, which are used to demonstrate=
the
phoneme inventory of a language. These two words are also homographs,
besides being a minimal pair (<strong><b><font face=3D"Times New Roman">hom=
ographic
minimal pair</font></b></strong>). The third, full verb meaning, of
course, has the Z pronunciation as well (<strong><b><font face=3D"Times New=
Roman">homophonic</font></b></strong>).
I think I pointed out the same phenomenon going on with <strong><b><i><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>have. </sp=
an></font></i></b></strong>The
pronunciation with F, viz. S (<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man"><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>has</span></font></i></b></strong>), has d=
eontic
meaning, to contrast with the regular perfect aspect or full verb meanings,
which both have V, viz. Z (<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman=
"><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>has</span></font></i></b></strong>), but differ=
ent
stress possibilities. These two verbs <strong><b><i><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>use</span></font=
></i></b></strong>
and <strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:=
italic'>have</span></font></i></b></strong>
are parallel in these ways, different from <strong><b><i><font
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>want </span></fo=
nt></i></b></strong>or
<strong><b><i><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-style:ital=
ic'>ought
(owe),</span></font></i></b></strong> etc., that show other tendencies and
patterns. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Scott <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included
identical word<br>
pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's<br>
grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite specifiuc=
<br>
if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native<=
br>
speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month<b=
r>
asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from <st1:St=
ate
w:st=3D"on">California</st1:State>--not <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Dixie</st1:p=
lace>.<br>
<br>
Scott Catledge<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
U</a>]
On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system<br>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)<br>
<br>
There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.<br>
<br>
Topics of the day:<br>
<br>
1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)<br>
2. For Grammar Teachers only<br>
<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
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<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400<br>
From: Scott <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
<br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br>
<br>
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
<br>
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors love=
d
it.<br>
<br>
Scott Catledge<br>
<br>
*****************************<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400<br>
From: Brett Reynolds <<a href=3D"mailto:brett.reynolds@HUMB=
ER.CA">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =3D=
<br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Brett<br>
<br>
-----------------------<br>
Brett Reynolds<br>
English Language Centre<br>
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning<br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Toronto</st1:City>, <st1:State=
w:st=3D"on">Ontario</st1:State>,
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Canada</st1:country-region></st1:place><br=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br=
>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700<br>
From: Brad Johnston <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only<br>
<br>
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1<br>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
<br>
Brian, =3D0A=3DA0=3D0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the wor=
d
"pro=3D<br>
bably". Linguists can =3D0Anever=3DA0make up their minds, rightfully s=
o, since
=3D<br>
they are focused on what they =3D0Ahear and see rather than the standard of=
S=3D<br>
tandard English grammar.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0=3D0AIf the=3DA0word 'have' does not=
belong in=3D<br>
the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =3D0Athat word, structurally?=
=3DA0=3D0A=3D<br>
=3DA0=3D0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for <st1:State w:st=3D"=
on"><st1:place
w:st=3D"on">me.</st1:place></st1:State>=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A.brad.05jul=3D<br>
y10.=3D0A=3DA0=3D0A________________________________=3D0A=3D0AFrom: "O'=
Sullivan,
Brian=3D<br>
P" <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
EDU</a>>=3D0ATo:
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D=
0ASent:
Mon, July=3D<br>
5, 2010=3D0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0AFrom:=3DA=
0=3D0AI would
p=3D<br>
robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe
=3D0Ahe=3D<br>
had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do s=
o.
:)=3D<br>
=3D0A=3D0ABrian=3D0A_______________________________________=3D<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
M=3D0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=3D0ATo: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D0ASubject:
F=3D<br>
or Grammar Teachers only=3D0A=3D0ADear Johndoe,=3D0A=3D0AYou will never be =
a comple=3D<br>
te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =3D0Athis one in a N=
or=3D<br>
man <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Chad</st1:place>=
</st1:country-region>
column in this morning's Washington Post.=3D0A=3D0ATwo days later, I r=3D<b=
r>
eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =3D0AThanks fo=
r the
m=3D<br>
ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =3D0Aexperiencing th=
e =3D<br>
problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue
=3D0Apage?"=3D0A=3D<br>
=3D0A.brad.05july10.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
br>
at:<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><br>
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528<br>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1<br>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
<br>
<html><head><style type=3D3D"text/css"><!-- =
DIV
{margin:0px;} --></style></he=3D<br>
ad><body><div style=3D3D"font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:1=3D<br>
0pt"><DIV style=3D3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-se=
rif;
FONT-SIZE: 12=3D<br>
pt">=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Brian,
</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>&nbsp=
=3D<br>
;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>You're a l=
inguist,
aren't you? The tip=3D<br>
-off is the word "probably". Linguists can never&nbsp;make up
their minds, =3D<br>
rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather than=
=3D<br>
the standard of Standard English
grammar.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT =3D<br>
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>If the&nbsp;word 'have' =3D<br>
does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word, struct=
=3D<br>
urally?&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV=3D<br>
><FONT size=3D3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for
me.</FONT></D=3D<br>
IV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>.brad.0=3D<br>
5july10.</FONT></DIV>=3D0A<DIV><FONT
size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D<br>
=3D3D2><FONT face=3D3DTahoma>=3D0A<DIV>=3D0A<HR
SIZE=3D3D1>=3D0A</DIV>=3D0A<DIV><B><SPAN =3D<br>
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
"O'Sullivan, Brian P" &lt;bpos=3D<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;<BR>&=
lt;B><SPAN
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=3D<br=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]<=
/a><BR><B><SPAN
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=3D<br>
AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN
style=3D3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:<=3D<br>
/SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers
only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably hav=3D<br>
e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been
repo=3D<br>
rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so.
:)<BR><BR>Brian<=3D<br>
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=3D0A<=
;DIV>From:&nbsp;</FO=3D<br>
NT><A href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">b=
[log in to unmask]</a>"
rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank y=3D<br>
mailto=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">bradvines2@=
YAHOO.COM</a>"><FONT
size=3D3D2><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]<=
/a><=3D<br>
/FONT></A><FONT size=3D3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05,
2010<BR>To: </FONT><A h=3D<br>
ref=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG@LISTS=
ERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>"
rel=3D3Dnofollow target=3D3D_blank ymai=3D<br>
lto=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG@LISTS=
ERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>"><FONT
size=3D3D2>[log in to unmask]<br>
.EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D3D2>Subject: For Gr=
ammar
Teachers only<BR><BR=3D<br>
>Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar
teacher until yo=3D<br>
u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this mornin=
=3D<br>
g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another
automated re=3D<br>
sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the dela=
y in
=3D<br>
response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported? Di=
=3D<br>
d you check our known issue
page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV&=
gt;</FO=3D<br>
NT></DIV></div><br>=3D0A=3D0A
</body></html><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
br>
at:<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<p><br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><br>
--0-108876266-1278422653=3D:58528--<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400<br>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used a=
s a
semi-auxili=3D<br>
ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of
"use=3D<br>
" with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciati=
on,
but the=3D<br>
se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is th=
at
as=3D<br>
"used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system=
in
the 14th c.=3D<br>
it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reducti=
on
th=3D<br>
at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduct=
ion
o=3D<br>
f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use =
but
not in its lexic=3D<br>
al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of
"use=3D<br>
d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, whe=
re
/@/ represen=3D<br>
ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation =
and
t=3D<br>
hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term =
for
w=3D<br>
hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
<a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of B=
rett
Reynolds<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
Importance: Low<br>
<br>
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar wro=
=3D<br>
te:<br>
<br>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Brett<br>
<br>
-----------------------<br>
Brett Reynolds<br>
English Language Centre<br>
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning<br>
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Toronto</st1:City>, <st1:State=
w:st=3D"on">Ontario</st1:State>,
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Canada</st1:country-region></st1:place><br=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br=
>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
=3D<br>
at:<br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400<br>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
Scott,<br>
<br>
An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna,&q=
uot;
and "wanna" are anal=3D<br>
ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
Phonological=3D<br>
ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/ =
=3D<br>
either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing =
=3D<br>
from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found.
"Wanna=3D<br>
," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say
"Who do you wa=3D<br>
nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substit=
ute
"whom" in these =3D<br>
as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in f=
=3D<br>
ormal English.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=3D<br>
<a href=3D"http://ohio.edu/" target=3D"_blank">OHIO.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of S=
cott<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br>
<br>
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br>
<br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=3D20<br>
<br>
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br>
<br>
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors love=
d
it.<br>
<br>
Scott Catledge<br>
<br>
*****************************<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
=3D<br>
at:<br>
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://ateg.org/</a><br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface<=
br>
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600<br>
From: Webmail bdespain <<a href=3D"mailto:bdespain@BURGOYNE=
.COM">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br>
<br>
--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say<br>
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then
"corrected" himself to<br>
"like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived=
as
a less<br>
formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that s=
tart<br>
to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences<br>
correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.<br>
<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> Scott,<br>
><br>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta,"
"gonna," and "wanna" are<br>
> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival
"to."<br>
> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/
before /t/<br>
> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar t=
ap<br>
and<br>
> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciatio=
ns
are<br>
> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from
"wanta" in that we can say<br>
> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go.&quo=
t;
You may substitute<br>
> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but =
I
find that a<br>
> stretch even in formal English.<br>
><br>
> Herb<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 9 Jul 2010 to 10 Jul 2010 (#2010-95)
*********************************************************
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