Dear all of you,
I am copying all of your responses to my question about the subject
of THAT sentence which appeared in a reading book for true beginning
ESL students. The task was for the students to ID the subject.
How's that for funky?
This has been a wonderfully wild ride, reading all of your analyses
of that itty bitty sentence. It reinforces what we teachers always
tell our students, "Even PhD linguists can't agree on sentence
structure."
Rebecca
On May 4, 2006, at 6:47 AM, Eduard C. Hanganu wrote:
> Craig:
>
> If "there" in "Above the door there were lights" is not existential,
> then it is either referential or deictic. If it is not deictic,
> then "there" is the subject of the sentence, according to Celce-
> Murcia (1999, 446-447. She suggests the question tag test for
> verification, as "question tags are made with the subject of a
> sentence."
>
> There were lights above the door.
>
> Question tag:
>
> There were lights above the door, weren't there?
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
> On Wed, 3 May 2006, Craig Hancock wrote...
>
>> Phil,
>> I don't think this is an existential sentence. "Over the door were
>> lights." We don't need the "there." It does sound poetic, but not
>> uncommon in context. "He had a beautiful door, and over the door were
>> lights." When the subject is the new information, it's a natural
> move.
>> We also extrapose infinitives, also for emphasis:
>> It is easy to love you.
>> I find it easy to love you (extraposition in the predicate.)
>>> "To love you is easy gives" us a different emphasis.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> These existential "there" sentences are not exactly for emphasis.
> They are
>>> mandatorily used to state about the existence of subjects
> with "be". You
>>> cannot say the following at all
>>>
>>> lights were.
>>> Lights are.
>>> The light is.
>>>
>>> Sometimes the following is allowed but they are not at all typical
> and
>>> sound almost poetical.
>>>
>>> Lights were on the car
>>>
>>> Something like the above indicates a previous reference or known
> lights
>>> rather than an existential type of sentence.
>>>
>>> except as short answers to questions. The existential meeting
> requires
>>> the extraposed construction giving that wierd "empty subject" /
> true
>>> subject structure of English, "There were lights on the car".
> German has
>>> it as well with "es gibts" and it is used just a little bit less
> than in
>>> English.
>>>
>>> Phil Bralich
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: May 3, 2006 8:58 AM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: subject
>>>>
>>>> Phil is right. "lights" is sometimes called "extraposed
> subject" or
>>>> "logical subject". "There" stands in as a placemarker.
>>>> In this case, the extraposition is probably for emphasis, often
>>>> because
>>>> subject is new information.
>>>> "In the front of the house, they had added a new door. Above
> the door,
>>>> there were lights." "Lights were above the door" wouldn't sound
> right
>>>> as emphasis would be on given information, in the wrong place.>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "lights" is the true subject, but there are those who prefer to
> say that
>>>>> "There" is an existential subject or before empty categories in
> syntax,
>>>>> they were called empty subjects. By mentioning both the true
> subject
>>>>> and
>>>>> the empty subject you get to satisfy your sense of pattern and
>>>>> precision
>>>>> as well as for meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: ?????? <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: May 2, 2006 5:03 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: subject
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on 06.5.3 8:51 AM, Rebecca Watson at [log in to unmask]
> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the subject of the following sentence:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Above the door, there were lights.
>>>>>> The subject is "lights".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mitsuko
>>>>>>
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