Geoff:

I would just like to clarify that I am not endorsing (or opposing)
Hartwell's position on the place of grammar in the teaching of
writing. I just think that the distinctions he draws about different
senses of the term "grammar" are so crucial, and they are independent
of the rest of his argument.

The work of Kolln is quite good as well.

--Dan

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Julie -
>
> You might also want to check out the "anti-Hartwell" position, namely the
> one taken by Martha Kolln in either (or both!) of her two major works:
> "Rhetorical Grammar" or her "Understanding English Grammar."  The problem
> with Hartwell is that he vehementally opposes teaching of grammar, taking a
> stand that grammar instruction may actually inhibit development of good
> writing.
>
> As a creative writing teacher, you may appreciate "The Poet's Companion: A
> Guide to the Pleasures of Writing Poetry." I use this book frequently to
> support the idea that from my perspective, the goal is not to teach "grammar
> in the context of writing," but rather to teach "writing in the context of
> grammar." Authors Kim Addoniziio and Dorianne Laux include a chapter on "A
> Grammatical Excursion," in which they make this remarkable claim:  "Grammar
> can be a door to rooms you might never otherwise discover, a way to realize
> and articulate your visions in language.  Adding an appositive or a noun
> phrase can make the scene come alive" (171). Showing how a appositives and
> noun phrases can greatly enhance the power of a poem provides an example of
> how grammar creates meaning - in this case one of the "six parts of
> meaning," "who" meaning.
>
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:10:33 -0700
>> From: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: question about negative contractions
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Julie:
>>
>> You might want to check out Patrick Hartwell's article "Grammar,
>> Grammars, and the Teaching of Grammar". It's written for writing
>> teachers, and it deals with the different senses of the term
>> "grammar".
>>
>> As for textbook grammars, there are too many of these to list. Just
>> look in any writing handbook. These tend to focus only on written
>> language and they deal with some combination of the following: the
>> correction of errors, ESL issues, issues of formality, the
>> idiosyncrasies of usage and punctuation. These tend to be simplified
>> in part for pedagogical purposes, and they don't address the issues of
>> the English language that most of us master without instruction (i.e.
>> they don't have to say "put the article before the noun").
>>
>> In terms of a descriptive/empirical grammar (what you call a
>> professional reference grammar), I would recommend the works of
>> Huddleston and Pullum. Their "Cambridge Grammar of the English
>> Language" is quite long and technical, and might be a little
>> off-putting, but it is incredibly thorough. They have a simplified
>> version of it in "A Student's Introduction to English Grammar," which
>> might be a better starting point.
>>
>> --Dan Roth
>> Contra Costa College
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Julie Nichols <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> > I'm interested in John's reference to "a 'real' English grammar," and
>> > the difference between textbook grammars and professional reference
>> > grammars. Could you point me to titles/authors of each?  (Remember, I'm
>> > fairly new to the list and neither a linguist nor a grammarian--"just" a
>> > creative writing prof with lit background who's a little obsessed w/good
>> > sentence-making. Speaking of which, in the "Great Courses" catalog
>> > (audio/video lecture series not associated with any one university), there's
>> > a "Building Great Sentences" series of lectures taught by Brooks Landing of
>> > the U of Iowa. Looks rich. Anybody know anything about it?)
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Julie
>> >
>> > Julie J. Nichols, Ph.D.
>> > Associate Professor
>> > Department of English and Literature
>> > Utah Valley University MS 153
>> > 800 West University Parkway
>> > Orem UT 84058
>> > 801-863-6795
>> >>>> "John Dews-Alexander" <[log in to unmask]> 07/28/10 2:43 PM >>>
>> > I agree with Dan that this is a feature of English that seems to be
>> > acquired
>> > by all native speakers without explicit instruction. ...
>> > For the budding language nerds in the class though (I remember being
>> > one!),
>> > it may not satisfy. They might be more delighted with an introduction to
>> > a
>> > "real" English grammar (I don't mean to be disparaging, but I think we
>> > can
>> > mostly agree that there is a big difference between textbook grammars
>> > and
>> > professional reference grammars).
>> >
>> > ...
>> > John
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Dan Roth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Anthony:
>> >>
>> >> You are dealing with the issue of subject-auxiliary inversion. From a
>> >> purely empirical perspective, it is grammatical to invert the subject
>> >> and the leftmost auxiliary verb to form certain types of question
>> >> constructions, but I believe it is ungrammatical to invert the subject
>> >> with anything else. This explains why you cannot invert the subject
>> >> with the string "do not" (your second example)--it is more than just
>> >> an auxiliary verb. If you treat an the contraction of auxiliary plus
>> >> negation as a sub-type of auxiliary, then that predicts that you
>> >> should be able to do inversion, which is the right prediction.
>> >>
>> >> The above describes the empirical facts, but it doesn't give a deeper
>> >> rationale for "why". I'm not in a position to give a good reason why,
>> >> beyond observing that it's just how English is. A lot of how the
>> >> language functions is idiosyncratic. Why does the earth rotate one
>> >> direction and not the other? That's just how it is, and it could
>> >> easily have been otherwise.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure how much of what I've said will help your student. I
>> >> think it might just overwhelm them--but I hope it at least helps you.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure how much you even need to explain though. I doubt it's
>> >> common that any students make the error of inverting "do not" with a
>> >> subject. I suspect that the principle that you can only invert a
>> >> subject with a single auxiliary is principle of the English that is
>> >> mastered very early by children.
>> >>
>> >> --Dan Roth
>> >> Contra Costa College
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Anthony DeFazio <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Can someone explain, please, why we can say "Why don't you like her?"
>> >> > but
>> >> > not "Why do not you like her?" A student asked and I was at a loss
>> >> > for an
>> >> > explanation. Thank you, Tony DeFazio, LIU
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