Thanks, Brett but, No. I am looking for a term that included identical word
pair in which voicing makes a semantic difference. Herb's
grammaticalization makes sense but I was seeking something a mite specifiuc
if the term exists. I would point out, however, that educated native
speakers of English at an international symposium at Pacific U last month
asked, "Where djwanna go for lunch?" They were from California--not Dixie.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
There are 7 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION (6)
2. For Grammar Teachers only
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:15 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
Scott Catledge
*****************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:55:43 -0400
From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
wrote:
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:24:13 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only
--0-108876266-1278422653=:58528
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brian, =0A=A0=0AYou're a linguist, aren't you? The tip-off is the word "pro=
bably". Linguists can =0Anever=A0make up their minds, rightfully so, since =
they are focused on what they =0Ahear and see rather than the standard of S=
tandard English grammar.=A0=0A=A0=0AIf the=A0word 'have' does not belong in=
the Twitter reply, what is it? What is =0Athat word, structurally?=A0=0A=
=A0=0ANice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.=0A=A0=0A.brad.05jul=
y10.=0A=A0=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom: "O'Sullivan, Brian=
P" <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Mon, July=
5, 2010=0ASubject: Re: For Grammar Teachers only=0A=0AFrom:=A0=0AI would p=
robably have written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe =0Ahe=
had been reporting the problem continually and was continuing to do so. :)=
[log in to unmask]
M=0ASent: Monday, July 05, 2010=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: F=
or Grammar Teachers only=0A=0ADear Johndoe,=0A=0AYou will never be a comple=
te grammar teacher until you can recognize errors like =0Athis one in a Nor=
man Chad column in this morning's Washington Post.=0A=0ATwo days later, I r=
eceived another automated response [from Twitter]: "Hi. =0AThanks for the m=
ail and sorry for the delay in response. Are you still =0Aexperiencing the =
problem that you have reported? Did you check our known issue =0Apage?"=0A=
=0A.brad.05july10.=0A=0A=0A
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--0-108876266-1278422653=:58528
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
0pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12=
pt">=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Brian, </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2> =
;</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You're a linguist, aren't you? The tip=
-off is the word "probably". Linguists can never make up their minds, =
rightfully so, since they are focused on what they hear and see rather than=
the standard of Standard English grammar. </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT =
size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If the word 'have' =
does not belong in the Twitter reply, what is it? What is that word, struct=
urally? </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV=
><FONT size=3D2>Nice of you to drop by. Say 'hi' to Mabel for me.</FONT></D=
IV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>.brad.0=
5july10.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV><FONT size=
=3D2><FONT face=3DTahoma>=0A<DIV>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A</DIV>=0A<DIV><B><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <bpos=
[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=
[log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SP=
AN></B> Mon, July 5, 2010<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:<=
/SPAN></B> Re: For Grammar Teachers only<BR></FONT><BR>I would probably hav=
e written 'the problem that you reported"--but, hey, maybe he had been repo=
rting the problem continually and was continuing to do so. :)<BR><BR>Brian<=
BR>_______________________________________<BR></DIV>=0A<DIV>From: </FO=
NT><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank y=
mailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><FONT size=3D2>[log in to unmask]<=
/FONT></A><FONT size=3D2><BR>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010<BR>To: </FONT><A h=
ref=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><FONT size=3D2>[log in to unmask]
.EDU</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: For Grammar Teachers only<BR><BR=
>Dear Johndoe,<BR><BR>You will never be a complete grammar teacher until yo=
u can recognize errors like this one in a Norman Chad column in this mornin=
g's Washington Post.<BR><BR>Two days later, I received another automated re=
sponse [from Twitter]: "Hi. Thanks for the mail and sorry for the delay in =
response. Are you still experiencing the problem that you have reported? Di=
d you check our known issue page?"<BR><BR>.brad.05july10.<BR><BR></DIV></FO=
NT></DIV></div><br>=0A=0A </body></html>
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<p>
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--0-108876266-1278422653=:58528--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:10:25 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
I'll take a stab at it. "Used to" has been commonly used as a semi-auxili=
ary since the 14th c. There are a few citations earlier in the OED of "use=
" with a <t> suffix, which might suggest a voiceless pronunciation, but the=
se were not in the past habitual sense. What I suspect happened is that as=
"used to" began to grammaticalize into the auxiliary system in the 14th c.=
it underwent the lost of lexical meaning and the phonological reduction th=
at are common in grammaticalization. Compare, for example, the reduction o=
f "have" to "'ve" or just a schwa in its auxiliary use but not in its lexic=
al uses, at least for American English. The phonological reduction of "use=
d to" involves the reduction of "to" to unstressed /t@/, where /@/ represen=
ts schwa. The /d/ disappears before the /t/, perhaps by assimilation and t=
hen deletion, giving us [log in to unmask] Grammaticalization is a broad term for w=
hat's happened, but probably broader than you wanted.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Importance: Low
On 2010-07-06, at 8:27 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar wro=
te:
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
/z/ is voiced and /s/ is unvoiced. Is that what you mean?
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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at:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:12:43 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Scott,
An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are anal=
ogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to." Phonological=
ly they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/ and with /t/ =
either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap and nasalizing =
from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are found. "Wanna=
," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wa=
nta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute "whom" in these =
as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch even in f=
ormal English.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."=20
I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
Scott Catledge
*****************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:05:57 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself to
"like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that start
to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
Bruce
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Scott,
>
> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before /t/
> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
and
> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can say
> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a
> stretch even in formal English.
>
> Herb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>
> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>
> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>
> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>
> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>
> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>
> Scott Catledge
>
> *****************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say=
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "=
corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with them."=
=A0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=A0 I think that when there=
are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language u=
sers=A0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning, a=
nd manage to find them.=A0 </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Bruce<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBER=
T F <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to wha=
t I sent earlier. =A0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna&=
quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
;to." =A0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v=
/ before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the al=
veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =A0Both pronu=
nciations are found. =A0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from &=
quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but not=
"Who do you wanna go." =A0You may substitute "whom" in=
these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch ev=
en in formal English.<br>
<br>Herb<br>
<div class=3D"im">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teac=
hing of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=
>[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, July 06=
, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/=
z sound<br>distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentence=
s:<br><br>My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.=
<br>
<br>My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I u=
se an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =A0He =
called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>
Scott Catledge<br><br>*****************************<br><br>To join or leave=
this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=A0 =
=A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
interface at:<br>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D=
"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a hre=
f=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--005045013c62e15cc2048abd9463--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:08:40 -0600
From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing to,"
but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say
> something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "corrected" himself
to
> "like I was having to side with them." It must be perceived as a less
> formal usage. I think that when there are phonetic differences that start
> to appear phonemically, the language users want to make the differences
> correspond to differences in meaning, and manage to find them.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> An addendum to what I sent earlier. "Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna" are
>> analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "to."
>> Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v/ before
/t/
>> and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the alveolar tap
and
>> nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. Both pronunciations are
>> found. "Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from "wanta" in that we can
say
>> "Who do you wanta go" but not "Who do you wanna go." You may substitute
>> "whom" in these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a
>> stretch even in formal English.
>>
>> Herb
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 8:27 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION
>>
>> Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound
>> distinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:
>>
>> My grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.
>>
>> My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."
>>
>> I use an /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.
>>
>> P.S. He called his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.
>>
>> Scott Catledge
>>
>> *****************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Forgive the typo; the word quoted should be spelled more like "haffing=
to," but I suppose the other pronunciation may sometimes appear.=A0 <=
br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Webmail bdespain=
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">bdespain@bu=
rgoyne.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>It was interesting the other day when I heard an interviewee on TV say=
something like "It wasn't like I was hafting to" then "=
corrected" himself to "like I was having to side with them."=
=A0 It must be perceived as a less formal usage.=A0 I think that when there=
are phonetic differences that start to appear phonemically, the language u=
sers=A0want to make the differences correspond to differences in meaning, a=
nd manage to find them.=A0 </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Bruce<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:12 AM, STAHLKE, HERBER=
T F <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Scott,<br><br>An addendum to wha=
t I sent earlier. =A0"Hafta," "gonna," and "wanna&=
quot; are analogous cases of grammaticalization involving infinitival "=
;to." =A0Phonologically they are entirely natural, /f/ devoicing to /v=
/ before /t/ and with /t/ either deleting after a nasal or laxing to the al=
veolar tap and nasalizing from the nasal, which then deletes. =A0Both pronu=
nciations are found. =A0"Wanna," incidentally, is distinct from &=
quot;wanta" in that we can say "Who do you wanta go" but not=
"Who do you wanna go." =A0You may substitute "whom" in=
these as the correct accusative subject form, but I find that a stretch ev=
en in formal English.<br>
<br>Herb<br>
<div>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of Engli=
sh Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_b=
lank">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Scott<br>Sent: Tuesday, Ju=
ly 06, 2010 8:27 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><br>Subject: Re: NOT A PAST PERFECT QUESTION<br><br></di=
v>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>Is there a special terminology that would refer to the s/z sound<br>di=
stinction in the word 'used' in the following sentences:<br><br>My =
grandfather used to make 'moonshine" from wild plums.<br><br>
My grandfather used wild plums to make 'moonshine."<br><br>I use a=
n /s/ in the first sentence and a /z/ in the second.<br><br>P.S. =A0He call=
ed his concoction "moonshine" and visitors loved it.<br><br>Scott=
Catledge<br>
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t, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http=
://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s=
ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
interface at:<br>
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"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a hre=
f=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--0016364590f892782a048abd9ead--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 5 Jul 2010 to 6 Jul 2010 (#2010-91)
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