Scott,
Thank you for your kind words. I replied to Adnan's response off-list as well and included the following:
"Your reference to the sunna sheds light on the formal and slightly archaic language of the translation. There has been a tradition in English, going back at least as far as the King James translation of the Bible. Those translators sought an intentionally formal and dignified English that was slightly archaic even in 1611, when the translation appeared. Religious discourse in English frequently maintains some archaism, and it's no surprise that renderings of the sunna, as of the meaning of the Qur'an, in English would follow that tradition."
For those on the list unfamiliar with the sunna, it is the collection of the sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammed. Moslems treat these sayings with a respect a bit higher than Christians give to the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2009-09-07 12:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196)
I concur with Professor Stahlke and your evaluation of his response; indeed,
you have characterized most of his responses--even though I often differ
with him. For further explication on 'correctness' in English--or in any
language, I refer you to Joos, Martin. The five clocks. New York: Harcourt,
Brace & World, 1967. It is a small, inexpensive but invaluable book.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196)
There are 2 messages totalling 565 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. A person will be with whom he loves. (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:25:30 +0300
From: Adnan Ashraf <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
--_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Professor Stahlke:
Your illuminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly appreci=
ated, and I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my motivation to =
review some grammar texts before classes start this upcoming term.
As for the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a translat=
ion of a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him p=
eace).
Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as well),
Adnan Ashraf
________________________________
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
Adnan,
Let me address your sentence first and then some of the thoughts you expres=
s in your posting.
The sentence you ask about uses what is sometimes called an independent, or=
headless, relative clause, that is, a structure in which the sentence cont=
ains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This construction =
is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good example of it is the p=
roverb =93Who laughs last laughs best.=94 In Present Day English we would,=
as you point out, use =93whomever=94 in such a construction since we now f=
orm independent relative clauses almost exclusively with indefinite relativ=
es.
On your question of number, whether =93whomever=94 invites a plural interpr=
etation, Let me suggest that =93whomever,=94 as an indefinite, is used gene=
rically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising whom one loves =
but does not suggest a specific person. In =93whom he loves,=94 =93whom=94=
has specific reference. As you point out, without a head it isn=92t clear=
whether the antecedent is singular or plural, but the reference would be s=
pecific, a specific person or specific people, such as one=92s family.
You ask whether the grammar of the sentence is perfect. We don=92t general=
ly use that word to describe the well-formedness or appropriateness of a se=
ntence. The use of =93ain=92t=94 in a sentence would make the sentence ina=
ppropriate in most cases for formal discourse. However, in establishing id=
entity with group that uses =93ain=92t=93 regularly, it might be judged app=
ropriate and well-formed for that dialect, and a sentence with a formally c=
orrect contraction might not be. Grammaticality, including appropriateness=
, tends more to be scalar than categorical.
Herb Stahlke
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Adnan Ashraf
Sent: 2009-09-05 06:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A person will be with whom he loves.
Greetings,
God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the following sentence =
would be considered perfect:
A person will be with whom he loves.
To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the sentence should re=
ad: A person will be with those whom he loves. - OR - A person will be with=
the one whom he loves.
However, I have not been able to convince myself that the first instance is=
grammatically incorrect.
Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant of the sentence =
in question: A man will be with whomever he loves.
Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plurality, and that is=
the only way that this last sentence differs from A person will be with wh=
om he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the prepositi=
on?
Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks, Adnan Ashraf
English language instructor
Institute of Public Administration
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_
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<body lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue" ocsi=3D"x">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">Profess=
or Stahlke:</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"></font>=
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">Your il=
luminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly appreciated, a=
nd I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my motivation to re=
view some grammar texts before classes start
this upcoming term.</font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma"></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=
=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">As for =
the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a translation of =
a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him peace).<=
/font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as=
well),</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font> </div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">Adnan Ashraf</font></div>
</font></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF87102" style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> STAHLKE, HERBERT F [hstahlke@=
BSU.EDU]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: A person will be with whom he loves.<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Adnan,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let me address your sentence first and the=
n some of the thoughts you express in your posting.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The sentence you ask about uses what is so=
metimes called an independent, or headless, relative clause, that is, a str=
ucture in which the sentence contains
no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This construction=
is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good example of it is=
the proverb =93Who laughs last laughs best.=94 In Present Day Englis=
h we would, as you point out, use =93whomever=94 in such
a construction since we now form independent relative clauses almost exclu=
sively with indefinite relatives.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">On your question of number, whether =93who=
mever=94 invites a plural interpretation, Let me suggest that =93whomever,=
=94 as an indefinite, is used generically here.
It refers to the class of persons comprising whom one loves but does not s=
uggest a specific person. In =93whom he loves,=94 =93whom=94 has spec=
ific reference. As you point out, without a head it isn=92t clear whe=
ther the antecedent is singular or plural, but the reference
would be specific, a specific person or specific people, such as one=92s f=
amily. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">You ask whether the grammar of the sentenc=
e is perfect. We don=92t generally use that word to describe the well=
-formedness or appropriateness of a sentence.
The use of =93ain=92t=94 in a sentence would make the sentence inappropria=
te in most cases for formal discourse. However, in establishing ident=
ity with group that uses =93ain=92t=93 regularly, it might be judged approp=
riate and well-formed for that dialect, and a sentence
with a formally correct contraction might not be. Grammaticality, in=
cluding appropriateness, tends more to be scalar than categorical. &n=
bsp; </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herb Stahlke
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Emeritus Professor of English</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ball State University</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Muncie, IN 47306</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT=
-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b=
5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: mediu=
m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tah=
oma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [=
mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adnan Ashraf<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2009-09-05 06:31<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> A person will be with whom he loves.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-F=
AMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Greetings,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the fol=
lowing sentence would be considered
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">perfect:</span><=
/strong></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3D"center"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">A person will=
be with whom he loves.</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the se=
ntence should read: A person will be with
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">those</span></st=
rong> whom he loves. - OR - A person will be with
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">the one</span></=
strong> whom he loves.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">However, I have not been able to convince myself that the f=
irst instance is grammatically incorrect.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant =
of the sentence in question: A man will be with
<strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">whomever </span>=
</strong>he loves.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plural=
ity, and that is the only way that this last sentence differs from A person=
will be with whom he loves, which refers
exclusively to a singular object of the preposition?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Thanks, Adnan Ashraf</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">English language instructor</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Institute of Public Administration</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'">Jeddah, Saudi Arabia</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma=
','sans-serif'"><a href=3D"http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th=
e list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html an=
d select "Join or leave the list"
</p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </p>
</div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave the list"
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 14:46:42 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
Adnan,
I'm going to ask a question about the Arabic original wording here, =
because I'm curious: Does the verb in that particular relative =
construction have a 3rd-person singular object suffix? If so, that might =
be an additional point influencing the translator to choose "whom rather =
than "whomever."
Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Adnan =
Ashraf
Sent: Sun 9/6/2009 5:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
=20
Professor Stahlke:
Your illuminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly =
appreciated, and I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my =
motivation to review some grammar texts before classes start this =
upcoming term.
As for the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a =
translation of a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and =
grant him peace).
Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as well),
Adnan Ashraf
________________________________
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves.
Adnan,
Let me address your sentence first and then some of the thoughts you =
express in your posting.
The sentence you ask about uses what is sometimes called an independent, =
or headless, relative clause, that is, a structure in which the sentence =
contains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This =
construction is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good =
example of it is the proverb "Who laughs last laughs best." In Present =
Day English we would, as you point out, use "whomever" in such a =
construction since we now form independent relative clauses almost =
exclusively with indefinite relatives.
On your question of number, whether "whomever" invites a plural =
interpretation, Let me suggest that "whomever," as an indefinite, is =
used generically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising =
whom one loves but does not suggest a specific person. In "whom he =
loves," "whom" has specific reference. As you point out, without a head =
it isn't clear whether the antecedent is singular or plural, but the =
reference would be specific, a specific person or specific people, such =
as one's family.
You ask whether the grammar of the sentence is perfect. We don't =
generally use that word to describe the well-formedness or =
appropriateness of a sentence. The use of "ain't" in a sentence would =
make the sentence inappropriate in most cases for formal discourse. =
However, in establishing identity with group that uses "ain't" =
regularly, it might be judged appropriate and well-formed for that =
dialect, and a sentence with a formally correct contraction might not =
be. Grammaticality, including appropriateness, tends more to be scalar =
than categorical.
Herb Stahlke
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adnan Ashraf
Sent: 2009-09-05 06:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A person will be with whom he loves.
Greetings,
God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the following =
sentence would be considered perfect:
A person will be with whom he loves.
To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the sentence should =
read: A person will be with those whom he loves. - OR - A person will be =
with the one whom he loves.
However, I have not been able to convince myself that the first instance =
is grammatically incorrect.
Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant of the =
sentence in question: A man will be with whomever he loves.
Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plurality, and that =
is the only way that this last sentence differs from A person will be =
with whom he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the =
preposition?
Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks, Adnan Ashraf
English language instructor
Institute of Public Administration
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/
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