>There is no need for legal pressure to learn English.  It's very =
>strongly economic.  To build a life and to prosper in the US pretty 
>much demands a command of English.






Before I left my native country I made sure that I could speak 
English fluently




On Sun, 21 May 2006, Herbert F.W. Stahlke wrote...

>Dear Peyman,
>
>I'd like you to put this exchange in context.  I set the discussion 
off =
>by commenting, somewhat ironically, on Pres. Bush's immigration 
speech, =
>his insistance that immigrants learn English, and the lack of 
government =
>support for them to do so.  The focus of the discussion has been on =
>Hispanic immmigrants because that was the issue Bush and Congress 
were =
>dealing with, immigrants crossing the southern border into the US, 
the =
>vast majority of them Spanish speakers.  No one said, "only 
immigrants =
>from Mexico are immigrants," and I strongly doubt that anyone on the 
=
>ATEG list is so poorly informed as to believe that.  I have lived in 
the =
>Southwest, and, in fact, most of the Hispanic population in the =
>Southwest is Native American.  Much of the Hispanic immigrant 
population =
>in the US is also Native American.  I'm also puzzled by your 
question of =
>whether "a Hopi person or an apache person would ... not be able to 
find =
>a job due to not knowing Spanish."  I don't believe that anyone in 
this =
>discussion was defending only one minority group to the exclusion of 
all =
>others.  Again, the context was Pres. Bush's speech and the current =
>political issues around immigration across our southern border.
>
>As to making English the official language of the US, that issue 
hasn't =
>been raised at all.  However, since you've raised it, let me address 
it. =
> Ever since John Adams was president, early in the history of this =
>country, there have been attempts to legislate English as the 
official =
>language of the US.  No such legislation has ever succeeded.  A 
number =
>of states have passed official English legislation, and most of 
these =
>laws have been struck down in state and federal courts as 
discriminatory =
>and as violating the First Amendment.  This has been the case in =
>Alabama, Arizona, and Alaska, as well as other states.  If you look 
at =
>census fgiures on non-English speaking residents of the US, the 
number =
>is less than five percent of the US population, a number made up of 
new =
>immigrants, of young children, and of older family members who do 
not =
>work outside the home. =20
>
>There is no need for legal pressure to learn English.  It's very =
>strongly economic.  To build a life and to prosper in the US pretty 
much =
>demands a command of English.  The historic cycle of immigrant 
language =
>learning, which continues with contemporary immigrants, is that =
>immigrant adults who do not know English learn it as well as they 
can.  =
>Their children grow up bilingual.  Their children's children grow up 
as =
>monolingual English speakers who preserve some of the cultural 
practices =
>of their heritage.
>
>I write as a first generation native speaker of English.  My 
parents, =
>both of whom were born in this country in 1906, were monolingual 
German =
>speakers until they started school at the age of seven.  That was 
when =
>they began to learn English.  They were both bilingual adults.  My =
>family spoke German at home for the 11 years of my parents' marriage 
=
>before I was born.  My father was a Lutheran pastor in a small town =
>south of Detroit, where there was a sizable German-Russian 
population =
>that wanted worship services conducted in both English and German.  =
>During World War II, FBI agents would come down from Detroit about 
every =
>other Sunday to sit in on my father's sermons and check them for =
>subversive content.  When I was born in 1942, my family decided to 
stop =
>speaking German at home.  The war, the FBI, and the fact that my 
elder =
>siblings all spoke English in school together combined to make 
switching =
>to English a desirable choice.  As a result, my younger sister and I 
did =
>not grow up bilingual.
>
>My mother tells a story of when she was a girl in Hamtramck, MI.  My 
=
>grandfather was pastor of the local Lutheran church, and my mother =
>attended the parochial school.  The neighborhood was made up of 
German, =
>Hungarian, and Russian immigrants.  The children played together and 
all =
>picked up a bit of each other's languages.  The parents of all three 
=
>groups used English outside the home and encouraged their children 
to =
>also.  Many of these children attended the Lutheran parochial school 
=
>where all morning subjects were in German and all afternoon subjects 
=
>were in English.  The children of all three groups studied both 
German =
>and English.  My mother told me that on Nov. 11, 1918, when the =
>armistice was announced, all the teachers and children gathered 
around =
>the flagpole in front of the school and sang "Now Thank we all our =
>God"--in German.
>
>Language policy and linguistic acculturation are complex issues that 
=
>don't lend themselves well to slogans, but slogans, unfortunately, 
are =
>what we get from politicians and from the media.
>
>So I'll end with an argument that smacks of a slogan:  legislating =
>English as the official language of the US is a solution in search 
of a =
>problem.
>
>Herb=20
>
>=20
>--- "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> This is true.  There is a long-standing
>> Spanish-speaking population in
>> the Southwest, especially Texas, New Mexico, and
>> Arizona that long
>> predates Anglo domination of those areas.  That
>> Hispanic settlement is
>> in the neighborhood of 350 to 400 years old, so you
>> are certainly right
>> your implication that Spanish has been spoken much
>> longer than English
>> in parts of what is now the United States.  To
>> consider the descendents
>> of these early settlers to be interlopers,
>> immigrants, or in any way not
>> as fully American citizens as anyone else is not
>> only historically
>> ignorant but insultingly jingoist.  Of course, it
>> fits in very nicely
>> with the Disneyesque Alamo myth (a little irony
>> again).
>>=20
>> Herb
>>=20
>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
>>=20
>> >Omar,
>> >
>> >Note my posting to Jose on irony.  I'd go with 500
>> years.  600 seems a
>> >stretch.
>> > =20
>> >
>> My parents are in New Mexico. It was one of the
>> first areas of European=20
>> settlement in North America. The locals still speak
>> a peculiar kind of=20
>> Spanish, or so I have been told. Not everyone who
>> speaks Spanish is a=20
>> "wet back". People in the Southwest seem to
>> understand this.
>>=20
>> Omar
>>=20
>
>I am an immgrant myself, a naturalized citizen, and I
>don't believe the perspective you are presenting here
>is fair.  To say that only immigrants from Mexico are
>immigrants, and to say that only they don't have to
>learn English is wrong.  It exludes other immigrant
>groups.  Also the southwest, if any of you ever
>actually spend time there, is originally native
>american; how do you like the fact that because of
>rhetoric like this, a Hopi person or an apache person
>would finally leave the reservation, go to phoenix or
>albaquerque, and not be able to find a job due to not
>knowing Spanish?  How is that ever fair in America?
>
>When you continually defend one minority group and
>only one minority group, you are excluding all other
>minorities.  English as the official language of the
>United States protects all minorities and not just
>one, as you tend to push for.
>
>sincerely, an immigrant by the way.
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20
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>
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