Ed,
You may be right. The student told me he was told the rule by a
teacher, obviously one who didn't understand that conjunctions don't
always link clauses OR felt it was too complicated to explain. It
seems strange to me (and foolish) to include "on and on" sentences in
the category, and it seems foolish (arbitrary) to pick a limiting
number.
Craig
Craig and others:
>
> For what it's worth, the National Assessment of Educational Progress
> uses "Run-on Sentences" as a general category under which are:
> Fused sentences: no punctuation between two (or more) independent
> clauses
> Comma splices: a comma between independent clauses
> On and on sentences: a sentence consisting of for or more
> independent clauses strung together with conjunctions. (This may be
> where Craig's student got his notion of run on?)
>
> Two articles on when professional writers use "comma splices":
>
> Irene T. Brosnahan, College English, 1976, "A Few Good Words for the
> Comma Splice"
> Anne L. Klink, English Journal, 1998, "Unravelling the Comma Splice"
>
> Ed S
>
> Both of these are very much worth reading.
>
> On Aug 23, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>
>> Dick,
>> I think the semicolon isn't used as often as it should be, maybe
>> as a
>> result of our turn away from direct teaching of sentence structure.
>> It's hard to explain it in terms of sound or pause.
>> I think you put your finger on our disagreement. To me, in fact,
>> this
>> is not just a comma splice, but a run-on sentence, which I would
>> define
>> as two or more independent clauses not linked in standard ways, those
>> being largely conjunction, colon, or semicolon. I find that my
>> students
>> come to college with strange ideas about run-ons. One student this
>> summer told me it was "a sentence with more than five 'ands'."
>> I think "comma splice" is a pejorative term, as are run-on and
>> sentence
>> fragment, but it's more accurate, I think, to define them in terms of
>> form and then consider separately if and how they can be used
>> effectively.
>> I think the Times example could be improved in a number of ways:
>> "Wikileaks is not just a source, but a publisher." "Wikileaks is a
>> publisher, not just a source." It would seem to me that the two clause
>> version would draw in a slower reading--two separate, but connected
>> statements--perfect for a semicolon. If I wanted a quicker reading, I
>> would opt for single clause. Obviously, I am being outvoted by
>> prevailing use.
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> Craig, it's probably not confusion or even disagreement so much as
>>> different
>>> definitions of "comma splice." I was considering that term (like
>>> "run-on
>>> sentence") a pejorative denoting an improper use of the comma between
>>> clauses. You are using a definition which includes all clauses
>>> joined by
>>> commas, both proper and improper. It may well be that your broader
>>> definition is the more widespread.
>>>
>>> Whatever we call them, I don't think there is much doubt that
>>> literate
>>> writers often join sentences of the "it's not X, it's Y" variety
>>> with a
>>> comma. I just Googled the words "it's not the heat it's the humidity"
>>> without supplying punctuation, and well over 75% of the hundreds of
>>> return
>>> examples had a comma after "heat." A much smaller percentage had a
>>> period,
>>> very few had a dash, and almost none had a semicolon. I stopped
>>> looking
>>> after about six pages.
>>>
>>> Dick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dick,
>>>> I think you may be confusing whether it's a comma splice with
>>>> whether
>>>> it's acceptable (or should be). I have always understood a comma
>>>> splice as a comma (and no conjunction) between independent clauses.
>>>> That doesn't mean it's always wrong to do so. (The same is true of
>>>> sentence fragment. It can be rhetorically justified, but doesn't
>>>> stop
>>>> being a fragment when it is.)
>>>> The intonation, for me, would be fall rise, which does anticipate
>>>> continuation. But to me, that's pretty much what a semicolon
>>>> connotes. The clauses are syntactically independent, but
>>>> meaningfully
>>>> thought of (rhetorically presented)as a single statement with two
>>>> equal parts. I would argue for the semicolon as the best choice.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> Bud,
>>>>>
>>>>> The direct link is
>>>> http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/after-deadline/.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have long admired the *Times*'s careful attention to
>>>>> consistency in
>>>>> style
>>>>> and their efforts at self-correction. I agree with most of their
>>>> choices,
>>>>> and most *are *choices, since all but a few deal with usage rather
>>>> than
>>>>> grammar. For example, "*reason why* more people are opting for the
>>>> bus"
>>>> is
>>>>> perfectly grammatical, but the "why" adds nothing to meaning and
>>>>> eliminating
>>>>> it makes the sentence crisper.
>>>>>
>>>>> One I question is the judgment that "*WikiLeaks was more than
>>>>> just a
>>>>> source,
>>>>> it was a publisher"* has a comma splice and should have a
>>>>> semicolon,
>>>> dash,
>>>>> or period. To me, a comma is fine and standard between two
>>>>> clauses of
>>>> the
>>>>> "it's not this, it's that" variety which are read aloud with no
>>>>> sentence-final pause at the comma position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Bud, for alerting me to this weekly column.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick
>>>>
>>>
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