Craig,
You're right that "who" is subject complement, and certainly with personal pronouns the objective case has pretty much replaced the subjective as subject complement. However, the odd status of "whom" in English makes it different from the personal pronouns. People seem to use "whom" as long as it's not obviously the subject of its clause, if it's moved, for example, from a lower clause as in "Whom did you think took the picture?" The informal use of "whom" seems to exhibit a lot more hypercorrection than is the case with personal pronouns.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
Herb,
Do you agree with Scott that "who" is the subject of the clause? That seems to go against standard analysis for "wh" clauses. The "wh" pronoun moves to the front, whatever its grammatical role. It is certainly not automatically subject.
"I read a book about what she said." Wouldn't "she" be subject? In "assumptions about who and what Jews are," I see them as complements of "are."
How about "challenges the assumptions about who[m] and what Jews appreciate." Would it be clearer in that instance?
I seem to be the only one even aware of this possibility.
Craig
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Stahlke, Herbert [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
I agree with Scott. The headless relative clause is the object of the preposition, and "who" is part of the relative clause. Pronoun case is determined within the clause, and the preposition is not part of the relative clause, so it can't determine the case of "who."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Carledge
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
I consider the phrase "who and what Jews are" to be the object of the preposition and the "who" to be the subject of "are." Some may argue for a PN; however, "who" is still the correct form.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
There are 5 messages totalling 773 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are" (5)
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:31:45 -0500
From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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Hello everyone=2C
Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"?=20
"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what Jews are= "
These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?
Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally=2C in this case the use of = "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subj= ect=2C and that requirement supersedes the requirement that a pronoun objec= t of a preposition should be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correc= t? Is my reasoning correct?
I teach English to adults whose first language is not English=2C so I need = to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and c= larity what I say to them.=20
I appreciate your help as always.
Martha
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'> Hello everyone=2C<br><br>Am I correct in the following statement the "whom"= should be "who"?
<br><br><i>"exposes and challenges the common assumptions= about whom and what Jews are"</i><br><br>These are my thoughts as to why I= come to that conclusion--what do you say?<br><br>Although a preposition pr= ecedes "whom"
normally=2C in this case the use of "who" is required because= the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subject=2C and that requireme= nt supersedes the requirement that a pronoun object of a preposition should= be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correc= t?<br><br>I teach English to adults whose first language is not English=2C = so I need to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great convic= tion and clarity what I say to them. <br><br>I appreciate your help as alwa= ys.<br><br>Martha<br><br> </div></body> </html>= To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p>
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 07:41:00 -0800
From: Erin Karl <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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"Jews are who and what" is a noun clause that acts as the object of the pre= position "about."=A0 That clause is linking in nature and "who and what" is= the compound predicate nominative.=0A=0A=0AThe nominative case is WHO.=A0 = The noun clause is the object, but when determining pronoun cases, you have= to look at what job that individual word is doing.=A0 In this case, it's t= he predicate nominative, so you must use the nominative case.=A0 The prepos= ition has no bearing.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0A=0AErin Karl=0AAnalytical Grammar =
- University Edition=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> Fr=
om: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>=0A>To: [log in to unmask] EDU =0A>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:31 AM=0A>Subject: who or whom? a= fter a prep., but subj of "are"=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>Hello everyone,=0A>=0A>Am = I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"? =0A>=0A>"e= xposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what Jews are"= =0A>=0A>These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do = you say?=0A>=0A>Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this ca= se the use of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause r= equires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement that a p= ronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective case. Is my concl= usion correct? Is my reasoning correct?=0A>=0A>I teach English to adults wh= ose first language is not English, so I need to understand thoroughly and b= e able to explain with great conviction and clarity what I say to them. =0A=
>=0A>I appreciate your help as always.=0A>=0A>Martha=0A>=0A>=0ATo join
>or l=
eave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://l= istserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or leave the list"= =0A>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =0A>=0A>
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar= ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>"Jews are who and wha= t" is a noun clause that acts as the object of the preposition "about."&nbs= p; That clause is linking in nature and "who and what" is the compound pred= icate nominative.<br></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Th=
e nominative case is WHO. The noun clause is the object, but when det= ermining pronoun cases, you have to look at what job that individual word i= s doing. In this case, it's the predicate nominative, so you must use= the nominative case. The preposition has no bearing.</span></div><di=
v><br><span></span></div><div><span>Regards,<br></span></div><div><br><s
v>pan=
></span></div><div><span>Erin Karl</span></div><div><span>Analytical
>Gramma=
r - University Edition<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style=3D"border=
-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px;
padding-left: 5px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-se= rif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new yor= k, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" = size=3D"2"> <hr size=3D"1"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</sp=
an></b> Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]><br> <b><span
an>style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> [log in to unmask] <br> <b><sp= an style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, February 24, 2012 =
10:31 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> who = or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"<br> </font> </div> <br>=0A<div id=
=3D"yiv474142521">=0A=0A<style><!--=0A#yiv474142521 .yiv474142521hmmessage =
P=0A{=0Amargin:0px;padding:0px;}=0A#yiv474142521 body.yiv474142521hmmessage= =0A{=0Afont-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}=0A--></style>=0A<div><div dir=3D= "ltr">=0AHello everyone,<br><br>Am I correct in the following statement the= "whom" should be "who"? <br><br><i>"exposes and challenges the common assu= mptions about whom and what Jews are"</i><br><br>These are my thoughts as t= o why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?<br><br>Although a preposi= tion precedes "whom" normally, in this case the use of "who" is required be= cause the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subject, and that requir= ement supersedes the requirement that a pronoun object of a preposition sho= uld be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning cor= rect?<br><br>I teach English to adults whose first language is not English,= so I need to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great convi= ction and clarity what I say to them. <br><br>I appreciate your help as alw=
ays.<br><br>Martha<br><br> =09=09 =09 =09=09 </div></div>=0ATo join or l=
eave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:=0A h=
ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or leave th= e list"=0A<div>=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A</div></div><=
br><br> </div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div></body></html>
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:42:59 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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Martha,
Technically, the subject of the clause after "about" is "Jews." This "f= ronting" is typical of Wh headed clauses.
" I know where you're going". "I know how you will get there. "I know wh= at you did last summer." In all three cases, the subject of the clause afte= r "know" is "you."
The question becomes whether you use "who" or "whom" as complement of t= he verb to be. It's "It is I" all over again.
"Jews are who and what." That seems right to me.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Martha Galphin
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
Hello everyone,
Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"?
"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what Jews are= "
These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?
Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case the use of "w= ho" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause requires a subjec= t, and that requirement supersedes the requirement that a pronoun object of= a preposition should be in the objective case. Is my conclusion correct? I= s my reasoning correct?
I teach English to adults whose first language is not English, so I need to= understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and cla= rity what I say to them.
I appreciate your help as always.
Martha
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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at:
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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> <div class=3D"WordSection1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Martha,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Techni= cally, the subject of the clause after “about” is “Jews.&= #8221; This “fronting” is typical of Wh headed clauses.<o:p></o= :p></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> “ I kn= ow where you’re going”. “I know how you will get there. &= #8220;I know what you did last summer.” In all three cases, the subje= ct of the clause after “know” is “you.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> The qu= estion becomes whether you use “who” or “whom” as c= omplement of the verb to be. It’s “It is I” all over agai= n.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> &=
#8220;Jews are who and what.” That seems right to me.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Craig<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Assembly= for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Martha Galphin<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012
10:32 AM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s= ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Hello eve= ryone,<br> <br> Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be &quo= t;who"? <br> <br> <i>"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what = Jews are"</i><br> <br> These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?= <br> <br> Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case the= use of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clau= se requires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement that= a pronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective case.
Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correct?<br> <br> I teach English to adults whose first language is not English, so I need to= understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and cla= rity what I say to them.
<br>
<br>
I appreciate your help as always.<br>
<br>
Martha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th= e list's web interface at:
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:11:20 -0500
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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This reminds me of what has traditionally been the hardest grammar question on my final exam:
*Give this letter to whoever/whomever arrives first.
*One might reason that you would say "Give the letter to *him*," and thus you replace *him* with *whom*.
It's a battle between the pawn [*to*] and the queen [*arrives*]. But we
all know that queens need their subjects. Thus, *whoever arrives*. Behind the curtain, though, the pawn is chuckling, as he's in charge of a big, fat noun clause.
Don Stewart
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wro=
te:
> Martha,****
>
> Technically, the subject of the clause after =93about=94 is
> =93Jews.=
=94 This
> =93fronting=94 is typical of Wh headed clauses.****
>
> =93 I know where you=92re going=94. =93I know how you will get
> there. =
=93I know
> what you did last summer.=94 In all three cases, the subject of the
> claus=
e
> after =93know=94 is =93you.=94****
>
> The question becomes whether you use =93who=94 or =93whom=94 as
> compl=
ement of
> the verb to be. It=92s =93It is I=94 all over again. ****
>
> =93Jews are who and what.=94 That seems right to me.****
>
> ** **
>
> Craig****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Martha Galphin
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2012 10:32 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be "who"?
>
> *"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what
> Jews
> are"*
>
> These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you
> sa=
y?
>
> Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case the use
> of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clause
> requires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement
> that a pronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective
> case. Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correct?
>
> I teach English to adults whose first language is not English, so I
> need to understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great
> conviction and clarity what I say to them.
>
> I appreciate your help as always.
>
> Martha****
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interfac=
e
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list" ****
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** To join or leave this
> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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This reminds me of what has traditionally been the hardest grammar question= on my final exam:<br><br><b>Give this letter to whoever/whomever arrives f= irst.<br><br></b>One might reason that you would say "Give the letter = to <b>him</b>," and thus=20 you replace <b>him</b> with <b>whom</b>.
<br><br>It's a battle between = the pawn [<b>to</b>] and the queen
[<b>arrives</b>].=A0=A0 But we all know = that queens need their subjects.
Thus, <b>whoever arrives</b>. Behind the c= urtain, though, the pawn is chuckling, as he's in charge of a big, fat = noun clause.<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Don Stewart<br><br><div>On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM,= Hancock, Craig G <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] du">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_= quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Martha,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0=A0 Technicall= y, the subject of the clause after =93about=94 is =93Jews.=94 This =93front=
ing=94 is typical of Wh headed clauses.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0 =93 I know wh= ere you=92re going=94. =93I know how you will get there. =93I know what you= did last summer.=94 In all three cases, the subject of the clause after =
=93know=94
is =93you.=94<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0=A0 The questi= on becomes whether you use =93who=94 or =93whom=94 as complement of the ver= b to be. It=92s =93It is I=94 all over again.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0=A0=A0=A0=93Jews = are who and what.=94 =A0=A0That seems right to me.<u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Craig<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:rgb(181,196,223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;paddin= g:3pt 0in 0in"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"T=
ahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz= e:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Assembly for= the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martha Galphin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 24, 2012 10:32 AM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">AT= [log in to unmask]</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"<u><= /u><u></u></span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Hello everyon= e,<br> <br> Am I correct in the following statement the "whom" should be &quo= t;who"? <br> <br> <i>"exposes and challenges the common assumptions about whom and what = Jews are"</i><br> <br> These are my thoughts as to why I come to that conclusion--what do you say?= <br> <br> Although a preposition precedes "whom" normally, in this case the= use of "who" is required because the verb in the succeeding clau= se requires a subject, and that requirement supersedes the requirement that= a pronoun object of a preposition should be in the objective case.
Is my conclusion correct? Is my reasoning correct?<br> <br> I teach English to adults whose first language is not English, so I need to= understand thoroughly and be able to explain with great conviction and cla= rity what I say to them.
<br>
<br>
I appreciate your help as always.<br>
<br>
Martha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th= e list's web interface at:
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>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join
>or=
leave the list"
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_bla= nk">http://ateg.org/</a> <u></u> <u></u></p> </div> </div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf= ace at:
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and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a>
</p></blockquote></div><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--f46d04016c1b69140d04b9b9b293--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:35:40 -0800
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: who or whom? after a prep., but subj of "are"
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 23 Feb 2012 to 24 Feb 2012 (#2012-27)
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