Kathleen is right--being an "infinitive," the expression does not
participate in "tense." However, the construction you discuss,
Janet--"to have quit"--is an "infinitive phrase," and so, as noted, can
have different forms (I guess it might be correct to call this
"aspect"--not sure). In English, they are usually called perfect,
progressive, and passive. "To have quit" is usually called the "perfect"
form of the infinitive.
I could be wrong, but I don't think other languages differ on this. I
suspect that the other grammars are simply mistaken in their
terminology.
Tim
Timothy D. Hadley
Assistant Professor of Professional Writing
English Department
Missouri State University
Springfield, MO 65897
office 417.836.5332, fax 417.836.4226
[log in to unmask]
Editor, ATEG Journal
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 4:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Question
I'd say that this is another example of someone's confusing "tense"
and "aspect." I would say that "to quit" is an infinitive--which,
because it is NON-finite, is not marked for tense, and "to have quit"
is a perfect infinitive--perfect here referring to its aspect, not
its status as a Platonic ideal.
Anyway, if we started to list the number of outright errors about
grammar in pedagogical material, we would all have to quit our day
jobs. I suspect that, after two generations of being told that
"grammar is useless" by enough people, the level of grammatical
ignorance is so great that no one responsible for the book in
question even blinked.
I am assuredly feeling surly today. . .
Kathleen Ward
UC Davis
On Jun 25, 2007, at 12:35 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote:
> Hello
>
> What do you (you guys? you all?) think about this? I am looking at a
> book, Side by Side: Spanish and English Grammar. In the following
> construction, 'to err is human,' 'to err' is referred to as a present
> infinitive, while in 'to have quit is terrible,' 'to have quit ' is
> referred to as past infinitive.
>
> This seems very odd to me. I'm have trouble thinking of an infinitive
> as having a present or a past but when I googled these terms, it
> appears
> that they are used in Latin and some other romance languages, although
> to the best of my knowledge, Spanish doesn't use these terms.
>
> Janet Castilleja
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marshall Myers
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:49 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: pair
>
> Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
>
>> I think, though, that contractions have a special status. We also
>> say,
> "There's five kids in the hall." We would never say, "There is five
> kids in the hall." "There's" and "where's" have become formulaic.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Nancy
> Tuten
>> Sent: Wed 6/20/2007 7:19 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: pair
>>
>> True-we certainly do say them. I meant that we wouldn't say them
>> if we
> were
>> thinking consciously about what we were saying and were trying to be
>> "correct" (oh, no-I said the "c" word!).
>>
>>
>>
>> I would say "Where're my scissors?" If we said "Where's my scissors?"
>> wouldn't we consider the expression colloquial, casual, informal (OK,
>> "incorrect"), similar to saying "Where is my dogs?" Heck, I know
>> plenty
> of
>> people who say "My dogs is in the yard," so "Where's my scissors" (or
>> "Where's my dogs?") is a natural progression.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
>>
>> Professor of English
>>
>> Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
>>
>> Columbia College
>>
>> Columbia, South Carolina
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 803-786-3706
>>
>> _____
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed 06/20, Paul E. Doniger < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>>
>> From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto: [log in to unmask]]
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:55:29 -0700
>> Subject: Re: pair
>>
>> It seems odd, perhaps, that we might not say "Where is the scissors,"
> but we
>> often do say "Where's the scissors." And I know I've said,
>> "Where's my
>> pants" (but NOT, "Where is my pants?").
>>
>> Why is that?
>>
>> Paul D.
>>
>> P. S. I wouldn't assume that we "never" say these things.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Nancy Tuten
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 6:02:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: pair
>>
>> But we would never say Where is the scissors? Maybe we would say
> Where is
>> my pair of scissors? More likely, I would say Where are my
>> scissors?
> In
>> fact, I say those very words quite often in our house.
>>
>> Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
>>
>> Professor of English
>>
>> Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
>>
>> Columbia College
>>
>> Columbia, South Carolina
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> 803-786-3706
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martha Kolln
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:58 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: pair
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I would--sometimes. Maybe not always. I think I use both "it"
>> and
>> "they" for scissors. I think I would say that "My scissors needs
>> to be
>> sharpened." I think "scissors" is on the fence--whereas those other
> objects
>> are nearly always plural.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Martha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/20/07 2:39:10 PM, [log in to unmask] writes:
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>> I'd say that a pair of scissors is an "it," whereas a pair of
>> twins is
> a
>> "they." Strangely, a pair of pants is also a "they," as are most of
> those
>> other bifurcated objects. When I lose my glasses, I never say, "I
> wonder
>> where it is,"--always "they."
>>
>> Martha
>>
>>
>>
>> Martha,
>>
>> If you lost your scissors would you wonder where "it" is?
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Adams
>>
>>
>>
>> **************************************
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> Herb,
>
> I wonder, too, about "He don't." I haven't heard a speaker say, "He do
> not."
>
> Marshall
>
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