Hi Dick - any thoughts on why the writer (or a speaker) would not use
and then use "to be" in the same sentence? Is there any noticeable
pattern? And, is "painted" taking a noun role in the first part?
Thanks...
John
- The Slammer not only needs painted (on canvas, board, and/or paper)
it really needs to be painted many times. -
On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Maybe so, John, but there are plenty of other "needs + PAST PARTICIPLE"
> examples available. Here's one that uses "needs painted" twice and "needs
> explored" once, and the writing is anything but sloppy. Here's an excerpt
> from the link:
>
> The Slammer not only needs painted (on canvas, board, and/or paper) it
> really needs to be painted many times. It needs to have its full location
> disclosed (the tofu company that sits beside it, for example, needs to be in
> one painting. The razor wire along the balcony on the left, next to the
> cherry tree, needs explored, in a painterly fashion.
>
> The writer appears to be in Oregon. Can anyone report in which regions this
> locution is commonly heard?
>
> Dick
>
> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 9:43 PM, John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>>
>> From the same "needs painted" source, just a few lines down - can't
>> help think the title is just a typo as the rest doesn't follow similar
>> usage... Interesting thread, nonetheless.
>>
>> <There are several other ways to tell if your home needs to be painted
>> and renewed; the color is fading and is noticeably lighter, there are
>> water streak lines, the white colors are turning grey, and/or deep
>> colors are losing their base and depth. Also, if you find chalking on
>> the surface of the paint, it may mean you need to get your home power
>> washed and painted.>
>>
>> http://blog.sharperimpressionspainting.com/?p=359
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Good point about “needs painting,” etc. I’ve argued in my classes that
>> > “needs painted” is an innovative form and “needs painting” a reflex of
>> > the
>> > older passive progressive.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I don’t know enough about Eliot’s grammar and style to say definitively
>> > that
>> > she would or would not have used the verbal noun “making” in an active
>> > sense. Having just finished Mill on the Floss, that sort of ellipsis
>> > feels
>> > odd, but that’s not evidence. Spring allergies feel odd too.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Herb
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
>> > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:59 AM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: progressive passive
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Herb,
>> >
>> > The old form of the progressive passive ("My house is painting")
>> > survives in
>> > expressions following "need," as in "My house needs painting" and "My
>> > bed
>> > needs making." There are even some regional US dialects where one hears
>> > "My
>> > house needs painted."
>> >
>> > Let me respond to your inquiry about “the articles he had seen under her
>> > fingers in the process of making.” Before reading your analysis, I would
>> > have read "making" as active: the process of her making them, rather
>> > than
>> > the process of them being made. This may reflect my present-day
>> > perspective,
>> > however, and Eliot could well have intended the passive.
>> >
>> > Dick
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > It’s well known that the Present Day English progressive passive as in
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > My house is being painted
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > did not come into wide use till the mid-19th c. Until then, one would
>> > have
>> > said—or written
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > My house is painting.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The progressive was probably the last form of the passive construction
>> > to
>> > develop in English. Here is an example of the older construction from
>> > George Eliot’s The Mill on the Floss (1860, Penguin Classics 1979), p.
>> > 549:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > “It is true, she was looking very charming herself, and Stephen was
>> > paying
>> > her the utmost attention on this public occasion – jealously buying up
>> > the
>> > articles he had seen under her fingers in the process of making, and
>> > gaily
>> > helping her to cajole the male customers into the purchase of the most
>> > effeminate futilities.”
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The phrase “the articles he had seen under her fingers in the process of
>> > making” is the construction in question, where “making” in PDE would be
>> > “being made.” Parsing the phrase as a late instance of the Early Modern
>> > English –ing form as a progressive passive makes sense in its historical
>> > context and Eliot’s linguistic conservatism. What sparked my curiosity
>> > was
>> > how my fellow grammarians might parse the construction, not treating it
>> > as a
>> > slightly archaic form for 1860s English. The analysis must account for
>> > both
>> > meaning and grammatical form.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Herb
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>> >
>> > Emeritus Professor of English
>> >
>> > Ball State University
>> >
>> > Muncie, IN 47306
>> >
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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>>
>>
>> --
>> John Chorazy
>> English III Honors and Academic
>> Pequannock Township High School
>> 973.616.6000
>>
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>
>
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--
John Chorazy
English III Honors and Academic
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
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