Herb,
I'll agree with that. But within the medical profession, not
everyone studies the theory of pathology. In fact, most health
professionals probably do not. There is a difference between learning
what one needs to know and learning more than what one needs to know. I
have no problem with the latter, if the former is met. Teachers need to
know how to analyze the structure of sentences. Otherwise, they mark
correct sentences as incorrect, and they push their prejudices (Don't
begin a sentence with "But.") onto their students. Linguists are trained
primarily as theoreticians, and from what I have seen, they want to
bring their theory into instruction at the very basic of levels. In
essence, this is harmful because it takes time away from what future
teachers really need to be learning.
Ed
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/08/05 2:40 PM >>>
I doubt if I'll sway Ed on this, but when we talk about the teaching
of
grammar before linguistics came along we have to recognize that
foreign
language instruction was a larger part of education as was etymology.
Phonological and morphological concepts were learned as parts of those
disciplines. Grammar was thought of as covering much more than
sentence
structure and correctness. Of course, there was also a time, not all
that long ago, when medicine was taught without microscopes or a germ
theory of disease.
Herb
Subject: Re: Washington
I would agree with Bill's idea of two courses, but when push
comes to shove, the phonology, morphology, etc. should go. Grammar was
actually taught very well before linguistics came along. Winston
Churchill, whose writing style was widely praised, noted how important
it was for him to learn how to diagram sentences. In fact, he noted
that
he learned that because he was considered slow, and thus not competent
to study Latin and Greek as did some of his schoolmates. He did not
study morphemes or phonemes.
I think I also agree with Bill, however, on the importance of
early study of Latin. One can teach prefixes, suffixes, word roots,
etc.
without any theoretical understanding of morphology.
Ed
>>> [log in to unmask] 04/08/05 12:08 PM >>>
When I began teaching a course called Grammar for Teachers, I could
immediately see its limitations when grammar was narrowly defined. So
I added a brief section on phonemics/phonics so that the prospective
teachers could teach phonics well and not have to learn everything on
the job. (I discovered that no one had ever taught the elem ed
students the principles of phonics even though they would be expected
to teach phonics.)
I also added a brief section on morphemics, though we could only do
enough to demonstrate the practical uses of morphemics. There was no
time to go into any depth. (I was shocked to discover that none of
the students had taken Latin in high school and that they had never
been taught anything about word analysis, or so they said.)
I eventually proposed dividing Grammar for Teachers into two 3-credit
courses, with one on syntax and another on morphemics/semantics and
phonemics/phonics/spelling. The department approved it, but we didn't
have enough staff to teach two courses. And the dean wouldn't approve
additional courses.
Bill
>Sorry, Ed, you can't teach someone how language works without
>discussing things like features and phonemes and phonological
>processes. These are important in early language development and
>they influence things like whether children master literacy or not;
>they allow teachers to understand why children perform as they do in
>school. They also give future teachers a clear understanding of how
>English spelling works and why it is the way it is; they also learn
>to what degree phonics instruciton is scientifically accurate. You
>also have to teach about language acquisition, because popular myth
>is so wrong about that. You can teach this stuff by giving students
>examples of child language, but if they don't know
>linguistic/grammatical terminology, they can't talk about what the
>kids are doing, and the specifically linguistic concepts are
>necessary to understand what is going on.
>And again, the teaching credential standards refer to the exact
>linguistic terminology.
>
>What I said they couldn't do was parse fluently after ten weeks of
>instruction. Most of them learn to parse well enough to perform on a
>test. Whether they retain that knowledge and expand on it or not is
>up to them. Few of them come in with enough grammatical analysis
>skills to independently describe the various sentence and phrase
>structures they would find in schoolchildren's writing, as a course
>term project. They would need a course that focuses fully on grammar
>for that, and they haven't had one when they come into my classroom.
>And they don't get in my classroom, as I pointed out in previous
>posts.
>
>A linguistics course for teachers is intended, in part, to change
>the student's mindset about language in significant ways so that
>they have an accurate understanding of language instead of the
>virtual nonsense that most people believe about language. It's more
>global than helping them improve their writing. There's nothing
>wrong with helping students improve their writing, but that is not
>the goal of the courses I teach.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
>English Department, California Polytechnic State University
>One Grand Avenue * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
>Tel. (805)-756-2184 * Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept. Phone. 756-2596
>* E-mail: [log in to unmask] * Home page:
>http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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