Scott,
Thanks for catching that. That's what happens when I don't check what I write.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2009-08-04 08:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 2 Aug 2009 to 3 Aug 2009 (#2009-165)
Herb--
You are right on adder but you meant apron--not napkin. Nappe was MF
as I recall and a napkin was a small piece of cloth in Norman England
and a naperon was a large piece.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 2 Aug 2009 to 3 Aug 2009 (#2009-165)
There are 10 messages totalling 1617 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. hypercorrection examples )
2. Hypercorrection:pseudo-subjunctive (3)
3. hypercorrection examples (4)
4. Fulsome discussion (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 00:48:29 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: hypercorrection examples )
From another online site
-... the most irritating thing to we military people.
-... designed for you and I.
-... impertinent people, which, between you and I Jack, are so numerous.
-... there's an awfully lot of methane and ammonia in the universe.
-I once had a dentist who never failed to say "open widely."
-... because he tested positively for steroids.
-All three lamps are pure brass, and not brass plated, as some similar
looking products.
-He asked if he were apprehensive.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 1 Aug 2009 to 2 Aug 2009 (#2009-164)
There are 6 messages totalling 566 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
2. hypercorrection examples (5)
-----------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 17:25:46 -0400
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: hypercorrection examples
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ATEGers:
I'm looking for *other* examples of hypercorrection in English besides "and
I" (as in "between you and I")? That's the example I invariably hear. Are
there others?
For those not familiar with the term, hypercorrection involves speakers
overextending a legitimate correction ("Jane and me are hungry" to "Jane and
I are hungry") to the point that they "correct" perfectly standard forms
(like "Mom fed Jane and me") thereby making them nonstandard ("Mom fed Jane
and I").
Perhaps an overuse of "whom" in a mistaken attempt to be correct might be
another example, as when a student writes, "...the Russians, whom we thought
were our enemies,..." Others?
Dick Veit
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:47:23 -0400
From: MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hypercorrection:pseudo-subjunctive
--=-Iz3siqsleHKPhmXkkgR2
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Good Morning,
A fairly common occurrence of =C2=A0hypercorrection is what I (and Quirk =
et al.)
call the pseudo-subjunctive. Here are some examples from my "subjunctive"=
file.
=C2=A0
"The president said he would sign the bill if it were short-term." (Jim L=
ehrer
on TheNewshour)
"Come on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth. (Jo=
hn
Grisham, "The Street Lawyer")
"As I watched the game, and the women, I asked myself if I were expected =
to
return to the bar . . ." (Grisham again)
"Afterward he crossed to the door and tapped lightly, not wanting to wake=
her
if she were asleep." (Kent Haruf, "Plainsong")
"If there were any doubt left [regarding Obama's plan to run], his visit =
to the
early-primary state of New Hampshire in December erased it."(David Mandel=
l,
"Obama: From Promise to Power")
"I wondered if he were thinking about his niece, the one who was not much=
older
than the dead girl by the lake." (Bill Pronzini, "Labyrinth")
The president told Lewinsky to contact Currie in the event she were subpo=
enaed.
(Centre Daily Times [our local paper])=C2=A0
"Thompson was particularly ciritical of farm subsidies, and when I asked =
if he
were really going to take that message to Iowa, he said , Yes, but . . . =
"
(David Broder)
As you see, I started my collection a long time ago. I thought about writ=
ing an
article, but I've given up on that.=C2=A0=C2=A0I assume I'm correct, am I=
not? =C2=A0That
we use the subjunctive "were" in "if" clauses that express a wish or a
condition contrary to fact. When there's uncertainty, as in all these
=C2=A0examples, then we use the indicative "was." =C2=A0Here's an illustr=
ation I use in
my book:
If George were here, we'd probably be playing charades. =C2=A0[
George i=
sn't here.}
If George was here this afternoon, why didn't he come in for coffee?
=C2=
=A0[George
might have been here.]=C2=A0
Here's one from the New York Times--a fairly common usage, I think--but c=
learly
a case of uncertainty:
"A federal judge . . . blocked the government's efforts to deport a Copti=
c
Christian who said he would be tortured if he were returned to Egypt."
We do seem to be obscuring the certainty/uncertainty distinction.
Martha=C2=A0
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n73DlNDG158748
<div>Good Morning,</div><div><br></div><div>A fairly common occurrence of
=C2=A0hypercorrection is what I (and Quirk et al.) call the pseudo-subjun=
ctive.
Here are some examples from my "subjunctive" file.
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>"The president said he would sign the bil=
l if it
were short-term." (Jim Lehrer on TheNewshour)</div><div><br></div><div>"C=
ome
on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth. (John Gri=
sham,
"The Street Lawyer")</div><div><br></div><div>"As I watched the game, and=
the
women, I asked myself if I were expected to return to the bar . . ." (Gri=
sham
again)</div><div><br></div><div>"Afterward he crossed to the door and tap=
ped
lightly, not wanting to wake her if she were asleep." (Kent Haruf,
"Plainsong")</div><div><br></div><div>"If there were any doubt left [rega=
rding
Obama's plan to run], his visit to the early-primary state of New Hampshi=
re in
December erased it."</div><div>(David Mandell, "Obama: From Promise to
Power")</div><div><br></div><div>"I wondered if he were thinking about hi=
s
niece, the one who was not much older than the dead girl by the lake." (B=
ill
Pronzini, "Labyrinth")</div><div><br></div><div>The president told Lewins=
ky to
contact Currie in the event she were subpoenaed. (Centre Daily Times [our=
local
paper])=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>"Thompson was particularly ciritic=
al of farm
subsidies, and when I asked if he were really going to take that message =
to
Iowa, he said , Yes, but . . . " (David
Broder)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As you see, I started my
collection a long time ago. I thought about writing an article, but I've =
given
up on that.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I assume I'm correct, am I n=
ot? =C2=A0That we
use the subjunctive "were" in "if" clauses that express a wish or a condi=
tion
contrary to fact. When there's uncertainty, as in all these =C2=A0example=
s, then we
use the indicative "was." =C2=A0Here's an illustration I use in my
book:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"
style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>If George were here, we'd probably be
p=
laying
charades. =C2=A0[ George isn't here.}<br></div><div><br></div><div><span
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>If George was
=
here this
afternoon, why didn't he come in for coffee? =C2=A0[George might have bee=
n
here.]=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's one from the New York Ti=
mes--a
fairly common usage, I think--but clearly a case of
uncertainty:</div><div><br></div><div>"A federal judge . . . blocked the
government's efforts to deport a Coptic Christian who said he would be to=
rtured
if he were returned to Egypt."</div><div><br></div><div>We do seem to be
obscuring the certainty/uncertainty
distinction.</div><div><br></div><div>Martha=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br><br><br><br><br></div>
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<p>
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--=-Iz3siqsleHKPhmXkkgR2--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 11:08:53 -0400
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hypercorrection:pseudo-subjunctive
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Martha:
Thank you for many excellent examples of hypercorrection. They are just what
I were looking for.
(Just kidding about the verb, not the sentiment.)
Dick
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:47 AM, MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Good Morning,
>
> A fairly common occurrence of hypercorrection is what I (and Quirk et
al.)
> call the pseudo-subjunctive. Here are some examples from my "subjunctive"
> file.
>
> "The president said he would sign the bill if it were short-term." (Jim
> Lehrer on TheNewshour)
>
> "Come on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth.
> (John Grisham, "The Street Lawyer")
>
> "As I watched the game, and the women, I asked myself if I were expected
to
> return to the bar . . ." (Grisham again)
>
> "Afterward he crossed to the door and tapped lightly, not wanting to wake
> her if she were asleep." (Kent Haruf, "Plainsong")
>
> "If there were any doubt left [regarding Obama's plan to run], his visit
to
> the early-primary state of New Hampshire in December erased it."
> (David Mandell, "Obama: From Promise to Power")
>
> "I wondered if he were thinking about his niece, the one who was not much
> older than the dead girl by the lake." (Bill Pronzini, "Labyrinth")
>
> The president told Lewinsky to contact Currie in the event she were
> subpoenaed. (Centre Daily Times [our local paper])
>
> "Thompson was particularly ciritical of farm subsidies, and when I asked
if
> he were really going to take that message to Iowa, he said , Yes, but . .
.
> " (David Broder)
>
>
> As you see, I started my collection a long time ago. I thought about
> writing an article, but I've given up on that.
>
> I assume I'm correct, am I not? That we use the subjunctive "were" in
"if"
> clauses that express a wish or a condition contrary to fact. When there's
> uncertainty, as in all these examples, then we use the indicative "was."
> Here's an illustration I use in my book:
>
> If George were here, we'd probably be playing charades. [ George isn't
> here.}
>
> If George was here this afternoon, why didn't he come in for coffee?
> [George might have been here.]
>
> Here's one from the New York Times--a fairly common usage, I think--but
> clearly a case of uncertainty:
>
> "A federal judge . . . blocked the government's efforts to deport a Coptic
> Christian who said he would be tortured if he were returned to Egypt."
>
> We do seem to be obscuring the certainty/uncertainty distinction.
>
> Martha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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--001485f7d914eb93cd04703e256b
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Martha:<br><br>Thank you for many excellent examples of hypercorrection. Th=
ey are just what I were looking for. <br><br>(Just kidding about the verb, =
not the sentiment.)<br><br>Dick<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, A=
ug 3, 2009 at 9:47 AM, MARTHA KOLLN <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto=
:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>Good Morning=
,</div><div><br></div><div>A fairly common occurrence of
=A0hypercorrection is what I (and Quirk et al.) call the pseudo-subjunctive=
.
Here are some examples from my "subjunctive" file.
=A0</div><div style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><di=
v style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"The president said =
he would sign the bill if it
were short-term." (Jim Lehrer on TheNewshour)</div><div style=3D"backg=
round-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div><span style=3D"background-=
color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"Com</span>e
on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth. (John =
Grisham,
"The Street Lawyer")</div><div><br></div><div>"As I watched =
the game, and the
women, I asked myself if I were expected to return to the bar . . ." (=
Grisham
again)</div><div><br></div><div>"Afterward he crossed to the door and =
tapped
lightly, not wanting to wake her if she were asleep." (Kent Haruf,
"Plainsong")</div><div><br></div><div>"If there were any dou=
bt left [regarding
Obama's plan to run], his visit to the early-primary state of New Hamps=
hire in
December erased it."</div><div>(David Mandell, "Obama: From Promi=
se to
Power")</div><div><br></div><div>"I wondered if he were thinking =
about his
niece, the one who was not much older than the dead girl by the lake."=
(Bill
Pronzini, "Labyrinth")</div><div><br></div><div>The president tol=
d Lewinsky to
contact Currie in the event she were subpoenaed. (Centre Daily Times [our l=
ocal
paper])=A0</div><div><br></div><div>"Thompson was particularly ciritic=
al of farm
subsidies, and when I asked if he were really going to take that message to
Iowa, he said , Yes, but . . . " (David
Broder)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As you see, I started my
collection a long time ago. I thought about writing an article, but I'v=
e given
up on that.=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>I assume I'm correct, am I not? =
=A0That we
use the subjunctive "were" in "if" clauses that express=
a wish or a condition
contrary to fact. When there's uncertainty, as in all these =A0examples=
, then we
use the indicative "was." =A0Here's an illustration I use in =
my
book:</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space: pre;">
</span>If=
George were here, we'd probably be playing
charades. =A0[ George isn't here.}<br></div><div><br></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"white-space: pre;"> </span>If George was here this
afternoon, why didn't he come in for coffee? =A0[George might have been
here.]=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's one from the New York Tim=
es--a
fairly common usage, I think--but clearly a case of
uncertainty:</div><div><br></div><div>"A federal judge . . . blocked t=
he
government's efforts to deport a Coptic Christian who said he would be =
tortured
if he were returned to Egypt."</div><div><br></div><div>We do seem to =
be
obscuring the certainty/uncertainty
distinction.</div><div><br></div><div>Martha=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><b=
r><br><br><br><br></div>
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lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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>http://ateg.org/</a>
</p></blockquote></div><br>
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--001485f7d914eb93cd04703e256b--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 11:38:23 -0400
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Hypercorrection:pseudo-subjunctive
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Martha,
Further thoughts: In addition to expressing "a wish or a condition contrary
to fact," isn't the subjunctive also commonly used for a hypothetical that
may or may not come true? An example is "If I were to visit the Smithsonian
when I'm in Washington next week, would I enjoy it?" If so, might not there
be an interpretation of your first example where the subjunctive would be
appropriate? Viz:
- "The president said he would sign the bill if it were short-term." (The
bill does not yet exist.)
- But: "When the president picked up the bill to read it, he knew he
would sign it if it was short-term." (The bill exists.)
Dick
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:47 AM, MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Good Morning,
>
> A fairly common occurrence of hypercorrection is what I (and Quirk et
al.)
> call the pseudo-subjunctive. Here are some examples from my "subjunctive"
> file.
>
> "The president said he would sign the bill if it were short-term." (Jim
> Lehrer on TheNewshour)
>
> "Come on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth.
(John
> Grisham, "The Street Lawyer")
>
> "As I watched the game, and the women, I asked myself if I were expected
to
> return to the bar . . ." (Grisham again)
>
> "Afterward he crossed to the door and tapped lightly, not wanting to wake
> her if she were asleep." (Kent Haruf, "Plainsong")
>
> "If there were any doubt left [regarding Obama's plan to run], his visit
to
> the early-primary state of New Hampshire in December erased it."
> (David Mandell, "Obama: From Promise to Power")
>
> "I wondered if he were thinking about his niece, the one who was not much
> older than the dead girl by the lake." (Bill Pronzini, "Labyrinth")
>
> The president told Lewinsky to contact Currie in the event she were
> subpoenaed. (Centre Daily Times [our local paper])
>
> "Thompson was particularly ciritical of farm subsidies, and when I asked
if
> he were really going to take that message to Iowa, he said , Yes, but . .
.
> " (David Broder)
>
>
> As you see, I started my collection a long time ago. I thought about
> writing an article, but I've given up on that.
>
> I assume I'm correct, am I not? That we use the subjunctive "were" in
"if"
> clauses that express a wish or a condition contrary to fact. When there's
> uncertainty, as in all these examples, then we use the indicative "was."
> Here's an illustration I use in my book:
>
> If George were here, we'd probably be playing charades. [ George isn't
> here.}
>
> If George was here this afternoon, why didn't he come in for coffee?
> [George might have been here.]
>
> Here's one from the New York Times--a fairly common usage, I think--but
> clearly a case of uncertainty:
>
> "A federal judge . . . blocked the government's efforts to deport a Coptic
> Christian who said he would be tortured if he were returned to Egypt."
>
> We do seem to be obscuring the certainty/uncertainty distinction.
>
> Martha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--001485f1e78e6afb4f04703e8f8a
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Martha,<br><br>Further thoughts: In addition to expressing "a wish or =
a condition
contrary to fact," isn't the subjunctive also commonly used for a =
hypothetical that may or may not come true? An example is "If I were t=
o visit the Smithsonian when I'm in Washington next week, would I enjoy=
it?" If so, might not there be an interpretation of your first exampl=
e where the subjunctive would be appropriate? Viz:<br>
<ul><li>"The president said he would sign the bill if it
were short-term." (The bill does not yet exist.)<br></li><li>But: &quo=
t;When the president picked up the bill to read it, he knew he would sign i=
t if it
was short-term." (The bill exists.)<br></li></ul>Dick<br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:47 AM, MARTHA KOLLN <span dir=3D=
"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wro=
te:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>Good Morning=
,</div><div><br></div><div>A fairly common occurrence of
=A0hypercorrection is what I (and Quirk et al.) call the pseudo-subjunctive=
.
Here are some examples from my "subjunctive" file.
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>"The president said he would sign the bil=
l if it
were short-term." (Jim Lehrer on TheNewshour)</div><div><br></div><div=
>"Come
on," I said, completely uncertain if he were telling the truth. (John =
Grisham,
"The Street Lawyer")</div><div><br></div><div>"As I watched =
the game, and the
women, I asked myself if I were expected to return to the bar . . ." (=
Grisham
again)</div><div><br></div><div>"Afterward he crossed to the door and =
tapped
lightly, not wanting to wake her if she were asleep." (Kent Haruf,
"Plainsong")</div><div><br></div><div>"If there were any dou=
bt left [regarding
Obama's plan to run], his visit to the early-primary state of New Hamps=
hire in
December erased it."</div><div>(David Mandell, "Obama: From Promi=
se to
Power")</div><div><br></div><div>"I wondered if he were thinking =
about his
niece, the one who was not much older than the dead girl by the lake."=
(Bill
Pronzini, "Labyrinth")</div><div><br></div><div>The president tol=
d Lewinsky to
contact Currie in the event she were subpoenaed. (Centre Daily Times [our l=
ocal
paper])=A0</div><div><br></div><div>"Thompson was particularly ciritic=
al of farm
subsidies, and when I asked if he were really going to take that message to
Iowa, he said , Yes, but . . . " (David
Broder)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As you see, I started my
collection a long time ago. I thought about writing an article, but I'v=
e given
up on that.=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>I assume I'm correct, am I not? =
=A0That we
use the subjunctive "were" in "if" clauses that express=
a wish or a condition
contrary to fact. When there's uncertainty, as in all these =A0examples=
, then we
use the indicative "was." =A0Here's an illustration I use in =
my
book:</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space: pre;">
</span>If=
George were here, we'd probably be playing
charades. =A0[ George isn't here.}<br></div><div><br></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"white-space: pre;"> </span>If George was here this
afternoon, why didn't he come in for coffee? =A0[George might have been
here.]=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's one from the New York Tim=
es--a
fairly common usage, I think--but clearly a case of
uncertainty:</div><div><br></div><div>"A federal judge . . . blocked t=
he
government's efforts to deport a Coptic Christian who said he would be =
tortured
if he were returned to Egypt."</div><div><br></div><div>We do seem to =
be
obscuring the certainty/uncertainty
distinction.</div><div><br></div><div>Martha=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><b=
r><br><br><br><br></div>
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<p>
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--001485f1e78e6afb4f04703e8f8a--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:12:29 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: hypercorrection examples
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Dick,
=20
If you're also accepting hypercorrection in pronunciation, here are some
additional examples (although there may be other explanations for the
first one):
=20
(1) Adding an -r at the end of a word before a vowel-initial following
word in dialects that typically drop -r ("Africer and Asiar are both
continents). One explanation for this is that speakers know they don't
say -r where a lot of others do, and then react by trying to add it -
but get mixed up about which words actually have it.
=20
(2) I think the Pyles and Algeo text on the history of English mentions
Shakespeare referring to a "napking" at one point. Apparently, his
dialect was one of the ones that use -in rather than -ing.
=20
(3) Spelling pronunciations may count as hypercorrections, so people who
really do pronounce the "t" in "often," or the "l" in "almond" may be
hypercorrecting. On the other hand, if they *grew up* around people who
say "all-mond," I'm not sure it would be a hypercorrection.
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 5:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: hypercorrection examples
=20
ATEGers:
I'm looking for other examples of hypercorrection in English besides
"and I" (as in "between you and I")? That's the example I invariably
hear. Are there others?
For those not familiar with the term, hypercorrection involves speakers
overextending a legitimate correction ("Jane and me are hungry" to "Jane
and I are hungry") to the point that they "correct" perfectly standard
forms (like "Mom fed Jane and me") thereby making them nonstandard ("Mom
fed Jane and I").
Perhaps an overuse of "whom" in a mistaken attempt to be correct might
be another example, as when a student writes, "...the Russians, whom we
thought were our enemies,..." Others?
Dick Veit
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dick,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If you’re also accepting hypercorrection in =
pronunciation,
here are some additional examples (although there may be other =
explanations for
the first one):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>(1) Adding an –r at the end of a word before a =
vowel-initial
following word in dialects that typically drop –r (“Africer =
and
Asiar are both continents). One explanation for this is that speakers =
know they
don’t say –r where a lot of others do, and then react by =
trying to
add it – but get mixed up about which words actually have =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>(2) I think the Pyles and Algeo text on the history of =
English
mentions Shakespeare referring to a “napking” at one point. =
Apparently,
his dialect was one of the ones that use –in rather than =
–ing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>(3) Spelling pronunciations may count as =
hypercorrections, so
people who really do pronounce the “t” in =
“often,” or
the “l” in “almond” may be hypercorrecting. On =
the
other hand, if they *<b>grew up</b>* around people who say =
“all-mond,”
I’m not sure it would be a hypercorrection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Dick
Veit<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 02, 2009 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> hypercorrection examples<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>ATEGers:<br>
<br>
I'm looking for <i>other</i> examples of hypercorrection in English =
besides
"and I" (as in "between you and I")? That's the =
example I
invariably hear. Are there others?<br>
<br>
For those not familiar with the term, hypercorrection involves speakers
overextending a legitimate correction ("Jane and me are =
hungry" to
"Jane and I are hungry") to the point that they =
"correct"
perfectly standard forms (like "Mom fed Jane and me") thereby =
making
them nonstandard ("Mom fed Jane and I").<br>
<br>
Perhaps an overuse of "whom" in a mistaken attempt to be =
correct
might be another example, as when a student writes, "...the =
Russians, whom
we thought were our enemies,..." Others?<br>
<br>
Dick Veit<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01CA146E.5900FCC0--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 16:16:01 -0400
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: hypercorrection examples
--001485f7d2aa596e6904704270f8
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Thanks, Bill. Along those lines, perhaps the derivation of "hangnail" could
count since it involved not only folk etymology but perhaps hypercorrection
as well. The Old English term was *angnaegl*, pronounced *ang-nail*. When
the word *ang* (meaning painful) died out, speakers incorrectly assumed the=
y
were hearing "hang." I am speculating that hypercorrection may have
contributed to this if they believed they were supposed to pronounce their
h's at the beginning of words.
Dick
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>wro=
te:
> Dick,
>
>
>
> If you=92re also accepting hypercorrection in pronunciation, here are som=
e
> additional examples (although there may be other explanations for the fir=
st
> one):
>
>
>
> (1) Adding an =96r at the end of a word before a vowel-initial following =
word
> in dialects that typically drop =96r (=93Africer and Asiar are both conti=
nents).
> One explanation for this is that speakers know they don=92t say =96r wher=
e a lot
> of others do, and then react by trying to add it =96 but get mixed up abo=
ut
> which words actually have it.
>
>
>
> (2) I think the Pyles and Algeo text on the history of English mentions
> Shakespeare referring to a =93napking=94 at one point. Apparently, his di=
alect
> was one of the ones that use =96in rather than =96ing.
>
>
>
> (3) Spelling pronunciations may count as hypercorrections, so people who
> really do pronounce the =93t=94 in =93often,=94 or the =93l=94 in =93almo=
nd=94 may be
> hypercorrecting. On the other hand, if they **grew up** around people who
> say =93all-mond,=94 I=92m not sure it would be a hypercorrection.
>
>
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
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--001485f7d2aa596e6904704270f8
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Thanks, Bill. Along those lines, perhaps the derivation of "hangnail&q=
uot; could count since it involved not only folk etymology but perhaps hype=
rcorrection as well. The Old English term was <i>angnaegl</i>, pronounced <=
i>ang-nail</i>. When the word <i>ang</i> (meaning painful) died out, speake=
rs incorrectly assumed they were hearing "hang." I am speculating=
that hypercorrection may have contributed to this if they believed they we=
re supposed to pronounce their h's at the beginning of words. <br>
<br>Dick<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:12 PM, =
Spruiell, William C <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
edu">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt=
0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dick,</span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you=92re al=
so accepting hypercorrection in pronunciation,
here are some additional examples (although there may be other explanations=
for
the first one):</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">(1) Adding an =
=96r at the end of a word before a vowel-initial
following word in dialects that typically drop =96r (=93Africer and
Asiar are both continents). One explanation for this is that speakers know =
they
don=92t say =96r where a lot of others do, and then react by trying to
add it =96 but get mixed up about which words actually have it.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">(2) I think th=
e Pyles and Algeo text on the history of English
mentions Shakespeare referring to a =93napking=94 at one point. Apparently,
his dialect was one of the ones that use =96in rather than =96ing.</span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">(3) Spelling p=
ronunciations may count as hypercorrections, so
people who really do pronounce the =93t=94 in =93often,=94 or
the =93l=94 in =93almond=94 may be hypercorrecting. On the
other hand, if they *<b>grew up</b>* around people who say =93all-mond,=94
I=92m not sure it would be a hypercorrection.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=A0</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill Spruiell<=
/span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--001485f7d2aa596e6904704270f8--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:06:09 -0400
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fulsome discussion
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Just how disgusting or offensive does this top bureaucrat want the
discussion to be?
On Wednesday, Groves [Director of the U.S. Census Bureau] welcomed the
congressional debate.
"It's good to talk about these issues about how to nurture and improve
federal statistics," he said in response to a reporter's question while
Locke looked on. "Whether this particular proposal is one that has merit is
something that is open to fulsome discussion, and we ought to have it."
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'>Just how disgusting or =
offensive
does this top bureaucrat want the discussion to =
be?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p style=3D'background:white'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On Wednesday, <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Groves</st1:place></st1:City>
[Director of the U.S. Census Bureau] welcomed the congressional debate. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style=3D'background:white'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>"It's good to talk about these issues =
about how
to nurture and improve federal statistics," he said in response to =
a
reporter's question while Locke looked on. "Whether this particular
proposal is one that has merit is something that is open to fulsome =
discussion,
and we ought to have it." <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCeltic><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Celtic'>N.</span></font> <font face=3DCeltic><span
style=3D'font-family:Celtic'>Scott Catledge, =
PhD/STD<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCeltic><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Celtic'>Professor =
Emeritus<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCeltic><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Celtic'>history & =
languages<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:42:49 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: hypercorrection examples
Bill,
I know you're aware that there is another explanation for r-insertion, but =
I'm not sure everyone else is. As post-vocalic /r/ leveled to schwa, basic=
ally the same tongue position without the retroflexion, it did so utterance=
-finally and before consonants. In other words, the leveling was blocked b=
etween vowels, which, of course, included word final /r/ when the following=
word began with a vowel. The result was an inversion of the old rule so t=
hat now /r/ was inserted between schwa and a following vowel, an environmen=
t that occurs almost exclusively at word boundaries. Rule inversions are n=
ot unusual in phonological change.
Perhaps another case of change of this sort is the reassignment of the /n/ =
of "an" to the following noun, giving us "a napkin" or the reverse giving u=
s "an adder.' This "n-mobile" shows up again in the reanalysis of "another=
" into "a nother" as in "a whole nother." This doesn't look analogical, th=
ough. =20
I wonder if hypercorrection might have been involved in the loss of the -nd=
present participle of Old and Middle English. The -ing form was a form of=
nominalization. It's been argued that -nd lost its final /d/ and merged i=
nto an alternation between -in and -ing, an alternation that is now sociall=
y governed and is probably the most studied sociolinguistic variable ever.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: August 3, 2009 3:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: hypercorrection examples
Dick,
If you=92re also accepting hypercorrection in pronunciation, here are some =
additional examples (although there may be other explanations for the first=
one):
(1) Adding an =96r at the end of a word before a vowel-initial following wo=
rd in dialects that typically drop =96r (=93Africer and Asiar are both cont=
inents). One explanation for this is that speakers know they don=92t say =
=96r where a lot of others do, and then react by trying to add it =96 but g=
et mixed up about which words actually have it.
(2) I think the Pyles and Algeo text on the history of English mentions Sha=
kespeare referring to a =93napking=94 at one point. Apparently, his dialect=
was one of the ones that use =96in rather than =96ing.
(3) Spelling pronunciations may count as hypercorrections, so people who re=
ally do pronounce the =93t=94 in =93often,=94 or the =93l=94 in =93almond=
=94 may be hypercorrecting. On the other hand, if they *grew up* around peo=
ple who say =93all-mond,=94 I=92m not sure it would be a hypercorrection.
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 5:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: hypercorrection examples
ATEGers:
I'm looking for other examples of hypercorrection in English besides "and I=
" (as in "between you and I")? That's the example I invariably hear. Are th=
ere others?
For those not familiar with the term, hypercorrection involves speakers ove=
rextending a legitimate correction ("Jane and me are hungry" to "Jane and I=
are hungry") to the point that they "correct" perfectly standard forms (li=
ke "Mom fed Jane and me") thereby making them nonstandard ("Mom fed Jane an=
d I").
Perhaps an overuse of "whom" in a mistaken attempt to be correct might be a=
nother example, as when a student writes, "...the Russians, whom we thought=
were our enemies,..." Others?
Dick Veit
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:53:14 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fulsome discussion
Maybe he meant "buxom," in Shakespeare's sense. Here's what the OED has:
II. Blithe, jolly, well-favoured.
3. Blithe, gladsome, bright, lively, gay. arch.
(The explanation in Bailey and Johnson, =91amorous, wanton=92, is apparen=
tly only contextual.)
1599 SHAKES. Hen. V, III. vi. 28 A Souldier firme and sound of heart, and o=
f buxome valour.=20
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Scott [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: August 3, 2009 8:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fulsome discussion
Just how disgusting or offensive does this top bureaucrat want the discussi=
on to be?
On Wednesday, Groves [Director of the U.S. Census Bureau] welcomed the cong=
ressional debate.
"It's good to talk about these issues about how to nurture and improve fede=
ral statistics," he said in response to a reporter's question while Locke l=
ooked on. "Whether this particular proposal is one that has merit is someth=
ing that is open to fulsome discussion, and we ought to have it."
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 23:32:22 -0400
From: Patricia George <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: hypercorrection examples
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----=_--031b55e6.031b55dc.c69d5c46
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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How about, "This will be a going-away party for myself and the rest of the
people traveling to England" ?
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]> writes:
>ATEGers:
>
>I'm looking for other examples of hypercorrection in English besides
>"and I" (as in "between you and I")? That's the
>example I invariably hear. Are there others?
>
>For those not familiar with the term, hypercorrection involves speakers
>overextending a legitimate correction ("Jane and me are hungry"
>to "Jane and I are hungry") to the point that they
>"correct" perfectly standard forms (like "Mom fed Jane and
>me") thereby making them nonstandard ("Mom fed Jane and
>I").
>
>Perhaps an overuse of "whom" in a mistaken attempt to be
>correct might be another example, as when a student writes, "...the
>Russians, whom we thought were our enemies,..." Others?
>
>Dick Veit
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>"Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Pat George
MHS English Department
National Board Certified Teacher
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<body marginleft=3D=2210=22 marginright=3D=2210=22 margintop=3D=2210=22 mar=
ginbottom=3D=2210=22>
<div><font face=3D=22Book Antiqua=22 size=3D=22+0=22 color=3D=22=23000000=
=22 style=3D=22font-family:Book Antiqua;font-size:10pt;color:=23000000;=22>=
How about, "This will be a going-away party for myself and the rest of=
the people traveling to England" ?<br />
<br />
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
<br />
<<a href=3D=22mailto:ATEG=40LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=22>ATEG=40LISTSERV.MUOHI=
O.EDU</a>> writes:<br />
<br />
<br />
>ATEGers:<br />
><br />
>I'm looking for other examples of hypercorrection in English besides<br=
/>
>"and I" (as in "between you and I")? That's the<br =
/>
>example I invariably hear. Are there others?<br />
><br />
>For those not familiar with the term, hypercorrection involves speakers=
<br />
>overextending a legitimate correction ("Jane and me are hungry&quo=
t;<br />
>to "Jane and I are hungry") to the point that they<br />
>"correct" perfectly standard forms (like "Mom fed Jane a=
nd<br />
>me") thereby making them nonstandard ("Mom fed Jane and<br />
>I").<br />
><br />
>Perhaps an overuse of "whom" in a mistaken attempt to be<br /=
>
>correct might be another example, as when a student writes, "...th=
e<br />
>Russians, whom we thought were our enemies,..." Others?<br />
><br />
>Dick Veit<br />
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br />
>interface at: <a href=3D=22http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htm=
l=22 target=3D=22_blank=22>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a=
> and select<br />
>"Join or leave the list" <br />
><br />
>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D=22http://ateg.org/=22 target=3D=22_=
blank=22>http://ateg.org/</a><br />
<br />
Pat George<br />
<br />
MHS English Department<br />
<br />
National Board Certified Teacher<br />
<br />
<br />
</font></div>
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 2 Aug 2009 to 3 Aug 2009 (#2009-165)
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